LEAVERS - update on the 'invoke A50 now' petition. I have the reply.

[Surferjet]

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Dear xxxxxx

The Government has responded to the petition you signed – “Invoke Article 50 of The Lisbon Treaty immediately.”.

Government responded:

The British people have voted to leave the EU and their will must be respected and delivered. We should not trigger Article 50 until we have a UK approach and objectives.

The British people have voted to leave the EU and their will must be respected and delivered. The process for leaving the EU and determining our future relationship will be a complex one, so we need to take time to think through our objectives and approach. We want to ensure the best possible outcome for Britain and the future UK-EU relationship. As part of this, the government will of course work closely with the devolved administrations to ensure we get the best deal for the UK as a whole. We should not trigger Article 50 until we have a UK approach and objectives, so Article 50 should not be invoked before the end of this year.

Department for Exiting the European Union

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petition.parliament.uk/petitions/133618?reveal_response=yes

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UK Government and Parliament

You’re receiving this email because you signed this petition: “Invoke Article 50 of The Lisbon Treaty immediately.”.

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I meant our nearest neighbours geographically. That doesn't preclude relationships with other contries. My husband is Indian, my kids go to a hugely diverse school, my street is populated by people from all over the world. Geopolitically we are still in Europe and I still feel a deep bond with our immediate neighbours - France, Germany, Italy etc...

I don't think it is about fielding an EU team but about being aware of the EU Olympic achievement as a whlie, alongside the national achievements.

whole

I think it's probably because most of them aren't fact they are opinions presented as facts, statistic used out of context and results interpreted according to personal desires.
There is tiny element of truth in that. But for the most part its, well er complete bullshit.

It also misses the point of who is going to have to sort the mess out, so those opinions/fact end up being important again however you see it.

Surferjet has repeatedly tried to answer the question of why she voted Leave and despite repeated calumny has continued but the I am starting to think you don't want to know why you you want to shout 'but you were wrong, why can't you see why you were wrong'.
I kind of feel for Surfer here as she did answer why she voted Leave.

However she still can't answer what she voted FOR.

I will keep stressing the point that there is a difference and you need to understand the difference. For your own benefit if you are a Leaver. (I'm actually trying to give you some friendly advice by telling you, to step up and shout to the rooftops what you want Brexit to look like PRACTICALLY not ideologically if you really want it. Otherwise you will get bulldozed by those nasty experts you despise).

In the post-Referendum era when we are deciding on what we what this is important to know and understand and to aim for. In the absence of this, it will be down to interpretation by others and for others to claw back things they feel they lost in the result. Ignore at your peril.

I also would like to point out that Leave still seem have an inability to understand that negotiations inevitably involve an element of realising there will be compromise and that you will not get everything you desire.

If you can't even articulate what you do want against a side which has very clear definition of what they want and has the upper hand in negotiations in many, many areas then you are even weaker.

Whether you want to 'believe' or not, is not the point. You can believe in fairies as much as you want. It still doesn't make them appear.

We are past the hearts over heads bit. We are very much in the logic and reason practical section now. You know the boring bit where all the dreams and notions of greatness get smashed to smithereens by the nasty EU who don't want to co-operate with our delusions of grandeur and instead are happy to go, "This is what you voted for and this is what we warned you about. We have to protect our own interests".

Time to face up to things and stop living in cloud cuckoo land my friend.

Project Fear is one thing - the government and Remain campaign were shocking.

However last time I checked the EU still have a say in the outcome and right now they don't like us very much and they think we are a bunch of grade A dickheads. (Thanks for compounding that Mr Farage)

And our various constitutional crisis which are STILL being consistently ignored and overlooked are not going away any time soon no matter how much you wish them too or cross your fingers that somehow NI and Scotland will forget about it and just capitulate to the wishes of their English Overlords.

Or do you have a magic solution to how we sort out the Good Friday agreement?

If you do, get writing and send your answer on a postcode to Mrs T May, 10 Downing Street, London, UK as I'm sure she'd love to hear from you.

Too tired I don't have time to answer every point you made but I do want to say something with regard to the rise in the far right wing in Europe and in the UK. I feel that having Brexit we will quash the far right. I feel that having Brexit and hopefully make it very clear that current EU citizens can stay and what our future rules and regulations on immigration are will stop all these stupid comments people are getting about when are the going home and worse.
I am hopeful that when there is certainty this should on the whole shut up the stupid xenophobes and racists.

Just because Marie Le Pen and Trump have been pleased we are leaving the EU doesn't make me feel aligned to them. I abhor their politics and again hope that when we show what an all inclusive and fair country we are then they will disappear.

I also don't think there will be a surge in UKIP. If Brexit happens as I have described I actually hope they will melt away. They are a one policy party and once Britex has achieved in the reasonable and inclusive manner that I am hoping for then I hope they will melt away.

Had remain won I think the opposite would have happened and we would have seen a rise in the far right.

I also like to say to who ever it was up thread likened our current conservative government to the far right has no idea if you think that is far right wing!

I am pretty sure I am going to get loads of stick for using the word hope a lot and chastised for not giving facts but those of you who are so certain that the opposite will happen have absolutely no facts to go on either.

So much of what I have read on this and other threads as facts are actually the comments and opinions of political commentators and academics or people who would always say that they or their sector is going to have a problem.
They are always going to say at the moment that it is all going to be terrible for their business sector it is in their interests to do so.
It is their starting point to try and get the government to go for what they want.
Everyone is in a pre negotiating situation at the moment and are not going to give away any concessions at all.

Would that be the current government who are full of fans of neo liberal economics , including the PM? Right wing doesn't just meaneed an approach to immigration or race, it covers the entire spectrum. Also many people in the current government have expressed some dubious opinion s. Boris and his picannines and water melon smiles, the dog whistle slur on Obama etc are just the tip of the ice berg

So much of what I have read on this and other threads as facts are actually the comments and opinions of political commentators and academics or people who would always say that they or their sector is going to have a problem.
They are always going to say at the moment that it is all going to be terrible for their business sector it is in their interests to do so.

This is why lobbying FOR the resulting deal is important.
Its not sufficient to go, 'well I don't like the EU that's why I voted to leave'. Well what the fuck DO you like?

I also note the lack of comment on NI and Scotland. Again.

Funny that.

The Good Friday agreement, is a major constitutional headache especially since there are now legal challenges related to it, and the Irish government have a stake in it and it really could make Brexit very difficult.

Is someone going to come along and tell me whether this problem is merely an opinion/commentary or indeed a financially costly and time consuming incredibly inconvenient fact of the Brexit process?

Maybe if we merely believe in Brexit it can be sorted it all out easily and this will just simply disappear, without the need to come with an actual practical solution that doesn't rip the United Kingdom to bits.

Hello!!!! REALITY!

I'm not trying to be difficult here. I am trying to get you to wake up to the told emptiness of the Leave vote.

I am sick to death of the total buck passing, lack of acknowledgement of the clusterfuck and willingness to take ownership and responsibility for issues like this, rather that pretty much going "well that's not my problem. Its all the people who want to derail things and protect their own interests".

Oh course they do! You say this as if its a bad thing or something they should just ignore and go, "Ok then. I'll bend over and take whatever leap off a cliff you intend. We'll except this poorly thought through shower of shit based on the opinions of people who haven't got any knowledge whatsoever of my field of expertise over my decades worth of experience"

Well bloody well give them solutions to their concerns!

That FT comment is bob on, isn't it?

On Scotland they should be allowed to Leave the UK IF that's what they want. It will a tragedy but like the break up of Eastern Europe should happen if that's what Scotland wants. However to leave and get accepted into the EU probably isn't going to happen. NI is harder but not a reason to accept EU. honestly tho not my circus, not my monkeys. I didn't vote into the EU and should have been forced to vote out. Should have stayed as a trading block then no one would have a problem.

NI is harder but not a reason to accept EU. honestly tho not my circus, not my monkeys.

What an attitude! A problem which has major constitutional implications, one which could have profound peace implications, and your response is 'whatever'.

'Allowed to leave'.

So that's it. You either stay and lump it or you fuck off and leave.

Wow.

Just. Wow.

I'm not sure the break up of the Union is what many people voted for.

Peregina, it proves my point in spades doesn't it?

Yugoslavia also broke up not all that many years ago, with considerable bloodshed. I don't think there would be the bloodshed in Scotland, I do think it could return to N Ireland, but that's OK, is it?

The Good Friday agreement, is a major constitutional headache especially since there are now legal challenges related to it, and the Irish government have a stake in it and it really could make Brexit very difficult.

How long do judicial reviews take? Does this put a stay on the process of invoking art. 50?

www.richardbuxton.co.uk/the-law/judicial-review-process

Judicial review (JR) is the process of challenging the lawfulness of decisions of public authorities, usually local or central government. The court has a "supervisory" role - making sure the decision maker acts lawfully. It is important to understand that a JR is not a re-run on the merits of the decision but a challenge to the lawfulness of the decision that was made.

Note - there is a very similar procedure known as "statutory appeal" which applies to certain types of decision, particularly planning decisions made by the Secretary of State or Planning Inspectorate on the Secretary of State's behalf. The crucial practical point to remember in those cases is that you have a fixed six week time limit in which to issue court proceedings. See below.

If a JR claim is successful the usual result is that the decision is "quashed" or nullified. In turn this usually means that the decision has to be taken again. In planning cases, this means that the application will be reconsidered having rectified any defects found eg. with EIA or other required information. This can result in exactly the same decision being taken - so victories in JR can be pyrrhic.

If that were always the case, there would be no point in the procedure (or in us being in business). In practice, however, the effect of a decision being quashed and a new decision being taken, often following a proper procedure (such as having environmental impact assessment (EIA) or factors properly taken into accocunt), means that at least a better, and often a substantively different, decision results. In other words you achieve something.

I'm reading that thinking. Hmm.

In terms of a50, I would say that it would be completely incompatible with the Good Friday agreement and the way in which NI voted. Sod the rest of the country.

This is where it might start coming back to that dereliction of duty in the European Referendum Act by the House of Commons and the House of Lords and the absence and plan and the lack of provision for an alternative to vote FOR.

I've already seen it stated that of all the legal challenges to Brexit, the question of NI is by far the strongest.

The Good Friday agreement is also signed by Ireland so anything to over turn the agreements contained within it, I would suggest requires the consent and approval of Ireland.

If they don't want to end free movement of people and trade barriers there is a teeny tiny problem.

I also believe that as a member of the EU, they are not to make a bilateral trade agreement with us independent of the EU.

To put it bluntly Rep of Ireland can't possibly agree to Brexit if these things go.

Yep. Its only a minor cock up that one.

Eejits.

Peregrina your desire to prove your point is nasty in the extreme of course a return to bloodshed is not ok. I lived through the IRA terror attacks, but saying I should have voted Remain to keep the Good Friday agreement/Keep Nicola S hAppy is like saying I should have stayed with my abusive ex to please my lovely in laws. But hey hyperbole and extrapolation has driven every other Leave voter away from giving you their views so keep up the plan. I sincerely hope we can renegotiate/maintain agreements as does every other right thinking person but if you are hoping for bloodshed to prove your point shame on you.

David Allen Green ‏@DavidAllenGreen · 40m40 minutes ago
Ask anyone who confidently assures you "Brexit will happen" to explain how GFA issues will be addressed.

Ahhh. the neutral Mr Green as ever, on the case with the inconvenient 'opinions and commentary'.

There are also pointing out that Sinn Fein, the Irish Republicans who don't recognise Westminster's authority, oppose Brexit and are part of this legal action.

Yeah. Teeny tiny minor issue here.

The Remainers are not "hoping for bloodshed" - we're the ones trying to avoid it. Saying "I've made my vote, now you lot fuck off and sort it" is a TOTAL abrogation of responsibility. But it seems to be the prevailing attitude of the Brexiters.

I find it ironic that comment was in the same post as an accusation of retainers using hyperbole.

So yours and the government's solution is...

... you shouldn't vote to keep NI or Scotland happy no. But you also shouldn't vote for something which has no plan to resolve those serious issues either and treats parts of the country with such utter contempt.

You make the crap comparison about abusive relationships, yet its Westminster that is trying to impose something on NI and Scotland because they failed in their duty to the people of Scotland and NI to take into consideration how the vote might have particular implications that the rest of the country would not experience.

Its ok for England to want something that NI don't want and might result in bloodshed there but this is the fault of NI for imposing their peace agreement on the rest of the country!? WTF?!

How selfish of them.

Are you actually for real?

I own that Smallfox just came in from the garden thinking the same

The idea that the Good Friday agreement who took years of hard work and compromise by people committed to try to recognise that NI needed better democratic representation and involvement locally in their affairs because Westminster didn't properly listen and represent their concerns (applicable to both sides of the community and from Westminster itself), and can just be 'fixed' to suit the whims and desires of Westminster and the English who want to impose something is really making my blood boil actually.

I really do think that most people, unless they live in NI or Ireland are wilfully and deliberately ignorant of NI's issues and are happy to sum it up in a neat stereotype of it 'being the fault of the IRA'.

That really has made be quite angry.

There was much coverage of the spike in applications for Irish passports in Northern Ireland but I know a lot of people who have done that with the very real intention of upping their families and work and moving south of the border if the political issues and especially free movement are not resolved. There is considerable frustration that their political leadership have not represented their concerns as strongly as Scottish leaders. This isn't about imaginary esoteric issues of "control" and "supranational supremacy". It is about security and not returning to the political and economic disaster of recent memory......

Peregrina your desire to prove your point is nasty in the extreme of course a return to bloodshed is not ok

You know well that this was something of a rhetorical question but I am glad to see that you have had a stab of conscience. I too remember the IRA attacks in the UK, and I know the situation was worse in NI. I don't want to see peace thrown away casually. You were glibly stating how eastern Europe broke up, forgetting that another European country broke up in extreme violence.

honestly tho not my circus, not my monkeys

I've read some things that have surprised me since the referendum but this has shocked me to the core.

It's an absolute disgrace that Leave have no fucking idea what they want the future to look like and completely wash their hands of anything that might suffer in the quest to get to their undefined Utopia and dismiss it as not being their fucking monkey.

I am truly appalled by that comment.

Soover it was a critique of your post.