LEAVERS - update on the 'invoke A50 now' petition. I have the reply.

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Dear xxxxxx

The Government has responded to the petition you signed – “Invoke Article 50 of The Lisbon Treaty immediately.”.

Government responded:

The British people have voted to leave the EU and their will must be respected and delivered. We should not trigger Article 50 until we have a UK approach and objectives.

The British people have voted to leave the EU and their will must be respected and delivered. The process for leaving the EU and determining our future relationship will be a complex one, so we need to take time to think through our objectives and approach. We want to ensure the best possible outcome for Britain and the future UK-EU relationship. As part of this, the government will of course work closely with the devolved administrations to ensure we get the best deal for the UK as a whole. We should not trigger Article 50 until we have a UK approach and objectives, so Article 50 should not be invoked before the end of this year.

Department for Exiting the European Union

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petition.parliament.uk/petitions/133618?reveal_response=yes

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You’re receiving this email because you signed this petition: “Invoke Article 50 of The Lisbon Treaty immediately.”.

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Also agree with Red as far as Merkel and the like think, out means out. We're on the back foot for any kind of negotiating and the longer we take to invoke Article 50 the weaker our position will become.

We pussy-footed joining the EU in the first place so from a European perspective, as a nation, we are probably more hassle than we are worth.

This is a comment written in response to a pro-leave article in the Financial Times:

It is utterly disgraceful, in a modern democracy, that we are left in a situation where a majority of Remain voters (for which read trade experts, economists, negotiators and civil servants, who are, for obvious reasons, more likely to be Remainers) are left to work out the detail of providing the evidence, strategy and implementation of a post-Brexit reality that exists solely in the heads of Leavers and has utterly no substance in reality.

There is no evidence, on paper, in research, economics, statistics or even common sense, to support anything less than a sub-optimal post_EU reality for Britian, regardless of which 'plan' it chooses. Moreover any misconception that any country could have any say, or ability to shape its place as a global power outside of bloc alliances shows a fundamental lack of any appreciation of the mechanics of the UK's role in the world, its geopolitics, strategy, security and prosperity.

It beggars belief any modern country can find itself in a position where a mass delusion becomes an accepted norm, which the entire substance and infrastructure of its state subordinates itself to in a phenomenal act of self-mutilation, where any effort to debate or apply the usual legal, parliamentary democratic and liberal values, architecture, rights principle and function of a representative democracy with freedom of speech is met with - and let's not beat about the bush - a patently moronic mantra of 'Brexit is happening, so accept it', and which assumes that Parliament and the normal democratic process should have no say in the future regulation, implementation and structure of the Post-Brexit plan, because any plan would be utterly sub-optimal that it could never, under any circumstances, make it past the common sense gatekeepers of Parliament or due process.

This is not just the EU we are leaving. We are leaving the modern world and entering a terrifying alternative reality of post-rationalism, the undermining of the UK's democratic architecture and potential fracturing of the very substance of the British state.

Amen to that.

I'm yet to see anything by any leaver - regardless of whether they are on MN or a politician of any level of education, to convince me differently tbh.

That comment is painfully accurate, Red!

I don't think the problem is that the UK has to leave now. It's mostly that Parliament hasn't voted to accept the Referendum result or not.
The uncertainty can only be worse than Brexit.
All they have to do is to decide to leave or not, and if to leave when to invoke article 50.

Who cares now anyway, people voted leave for all sorts of reasons - no one has to justify themselves to anyone. I could have voted leave because I hate using low energy lightbulbs that the EU have forced on me. ( reason enough some might say )
But essentially, people were getting angry at living under a system they never voted for & never wanted. You can't sign up for something in the 70's & expect future generations to never question it? What we entered back then was very different to the EU we have now. Thankfully, enough of us had the courage to vote leave & take back control - & if you think the EU had no control over our laws, what we do, when we do it, who we let in, who we kick out, then what's the problem? You ain't gonna miss anything are you.
& re; the British thing. Yes, people who are proud to call themselves British & don't laugh at the term 'British Values', people who aren't sheep following orders from bureaucrats they've never heard of, people who could see the EU for what it was ( a useless waste of money for most of us ) people who aren't living in the past, but have vision & hope for a better future out of the EU. They voted leave.

I don't know what the average remain voter is because thankfully I don't know many in RL, but just from my online experience they seem to be mostly virtue signalling, middle class, pompous, entitled, arrogant, aggressive, & humourless. A bit like the EU.

Will this vote take place in September then? I can't remember why Cameron said he'd stick around (and then didn't).

You can't sign up for something in the 70's & expect future generations to never question it?

And yet you're happy to go forward with something that the majority of younger people are not remotely in favour of. Your argument(s) are absurd.

I don't doubt that we are leaving, but I think as I outlined above a brexit lite option is far more likely than a hard exit.

Essentially it complies with the leave vote, whilst acting in the interests of our major economic stakeholders.

In reality it kicks brexit into the long grass, it happens in name only. Bit that should be enough.

HAHA sheep following orders, nice one.

In fact I'm going to laugh at your entire statement. Show me the vision you describe.

surfer I don't understand (still) how belonging to the Eu undermined in any way British values but still...as for the generation thing the stats confirm the vast majority of under 30 voters wanted to remain. What right do you think they will have to determine their - now grim - future robbed by their grandparents and generation close to retirement?

Red thank you for posting the FT commentary. If that doesn't wake people up nothing will...

You also don't define British values, I suspect they are a narrow set defined by you, cause they aren't seen as an issue in the Scotland, Northern Ireland, the capital city or many others, are these values particularly native to leave areas then?

Who has voted in the UK for the political system that is currently in place?
When was the last time anyone voted to keep or drop the House of Lords or to keep a Constituency system or not? Even for the Monarchy?

"take back control" / "follow orders from bureaucrats" - these are absurdities.

And it is possible to believe in the so called British values and also be an EU citizen.

Have you got a link to the FT comment Red?

British Values were things like fair play and tolerance. We have just seen how intolerant the country has become, and not just to EU citizens either, so we can scrap that one.
Oh, and being a plucky loser. Spoilt that one too, with our Olympic wins.

Who cares now anyway, people voted leave for all sorts of reasons - no one has to justify themselves to anyone. I could have voted leave because I hate using low energy lightbulbs that the EU have forced on me. ( reason enough some might say )

You still don't get it do you?

You have effectively just said, it doesn't matter what I voted for.

So if it doesn't matter what you've voted for then, I'd quite like to stay in please. Not that I will get that nor is that probably the option the one that's in the best interests of the country as a whole now.

The fact is you will get Brexit in time - a Brexit you didn't vote for and don't want - IMPOSED on you every bit as much as any Remainer, just because you don't actually have a real clue want you voted FOR because no one voted FOR anything and the point we are now at, is precisely the 'justifying bit'.

You are now going, "ok, bye, I've made my point, now you sort it out and I'll moan about it later when it bares no resemblance whatsoever to what I had in my head. I have no interest in taking part in the difficult bit of working with people to come to a consensus about what's best for this country and make some compromises and concessions about the fact that I can't have my cake and eat it, because what's in my head trumps everything. Its not my responsibility, its that of the politicians to sort out their and my mess. But don't worry I'll blame anything I don't like on pesky remainers".

So yes you very much DO have to justify how you voted and back it up with how its in the best interests of the country, because otherwise pissed off Remainers will do everything they can to shape Brexit to something that they like.

Now is the time to really state your case, and build a good case for things you feel most important and ensure they are included with other people - including Remainers. You need to persuade others that your vision for Brexit, is the one that others should share and fight for.

To put it bluntly, you can lump it and have no right to whinge about it if you don't like how that looks like, if you are going to take the attitude that you don't have to justify what you voted for. Of course you bloody do.

As for those lightbulbs. I think you'll find that we'll still be at the mercy of lots of EU regs we don't like even if we are out of the EU. Even if they were still around and the legislation was post-Brexit, I'm pretty sure that the market for low energy bulbs would die a slow death with economies of scale if the rest of the EU went with it and we didn't combined with the economic savings of low energy light bulbs. And you'd get it 'imposed' on you that way quickly enough as companies realised there was no long term future in the old style light bulbs and they couldn't be competitive in the wider market if they stuck with the old fashioned ones.

Ok, perhaps the lightbulb isn't the best example here, but the principle is there that we will still have EU regs 'imposed' on us and the idea that we won't simply because we are outside the union, is somewhat naïve and shows a massive lack of understanding of business practice and economics.

So, mulling all things over our 3 UK options are Brexit lite, short term stability but loss of EU funding and any say in laws and regulations could mean a slow ecomic decline unless government really steps up its game (hollow laugh). Hard Brexit, complete unknown but likely to be bad, we have no experience of negotiating trade deals and it raises questions over Northern Ireland's future, or just not leave, which is going to be really uncomfortable given all the damage we've caused, but we do keep a diminished seat at the table, again the government will have to up its game domestically to keep the peace. Interesting times.

SlyLy the under 30's voting figures have been disproved

Have you got a link to the FT comment Red?

Sadly not. I've been trying to find the original article it was taken from to see exactly how it relates myself, though I think the comment stands alone pretty well without the context it was written in. Which is why I posted it.

I got it from a couple of screen grabs in a retweet of a comment from Chris Kendall ‏@ottocrat
The original article was apparently written by Matthew Elliot if that helps someone to find it.

I assume that Matthew Elliot is actually Matthew Elliott with two ts who was Chief Exec of the Leave campaign, though the tweet I've seen spells it with one.

surfer, thanks for your response.

re; the British thing. Yes, people who are proud to call themselves British
I am proud to be British. I love this place with my bones. I am also proud that, until such time as we leave the EU, being British also means being European and having freedom to move around and work in all the countries of the EU.

Some of your other points could still stand further unpicking, so I can properly understand your thinking.

don't laugh at the term 'British Values' How do you define/describe British values? I'd be interested to know; then I can answer as to whether I would 'laugh at' them.

people who aren't sheep following orders from bureaucrats they've never heard of
Can you expand on 'following orders'? Have you heard of your elected MEP(s)? Voted for them? Have you heard of the Prime Minister of the UK? Voted for them?

people who could see the EU for what it was ( a useless waste of money for most of us )
I'd be interested in hearing how, in your opinion and with some evidence, it is a waste of money (for my part, I'd like here to say that our annual spending on the EU is about 0.5% of the UK's annual expenditure).

people who aren't living in the past Can you say how remain voters are living in the past?

have vision & hope for a better future out of the EU. The same question that many posters have been asking on this thread applies: What does your vision include? What will you feel and think if an eventual Brexit deal does not reflect it?

Found it Red. And yes the article is by the leave Matthew Elliott.

www.ft.com/content/93321376-62f2-11e6-a08a-c7ac04ef00aa#comments

dontneedsunshine that's a pretty good summary of the three scenarios at this present moment in time unless something more comprehensive and concrete appears on the table.

Oops that takes you to a pay wall.
If you google "The challenge to ensure that Brexit works for business" and click on the link with "comments" at the end of it, you should get to it.

Ooo got the FT article link:

www.ft.com/content/93321376-62f2-11e6-a08a-c7ac04ef00aa

It says...

Er. Nothing.

Jack shit, hot air.

A vision of a better future out of the EU would be nice. If someone could furnish one...

Apart from David Davis, we already know what his vision is.

(Mind you, visions, like dreams, don't always come true. Especially when they're founded on fond wishes rather than economic and geopolitical realities.)