LEAVERS - update on the 'invoke A50 now' petition. I have the reply.

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Dear xxxxxx

The Government has responded to the petition you signed – “Invoke Article 50 of The Lisbon Treaty immediately.”.

Government responded:

The British people have voted to leave the EU and their will must be respected and delivered. We should not trigger Article 50 until we have a UK approach and objectives.

The British people have voted to leave the EU and their will must be respected and delivered. The process for leaving the EU and determining our future relationship will be a complex one, so we need to take time to think through our objectives and approach. We want to ensure the best possible outcome for Britain and the future UK-EU relationship. As part of this, the government will of course work closely with the devolved administrations to ensure we get the best deal for the UK as a whole. We should not trigger Article 50 until we have a UK approach and objectives, so Article 50 should not be invoked before the end of this year.

Department for Exiting the European Union

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petition.parliament.uk/petitions/133618?reveal_response=yes

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UK Government and Parliament

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I think Soyo, its based on a utter misunderstanding of the nature of international trade and Britain's influence and importance.

A pomp and circumstance dream of a land of hope and glory that ceased to exist in that way in the 1930's.

Oh yes, another little anecdote. Despite living in Fenland, I am also only 15 miles from Cambridge. One of my close friends works for the MRC, a lot of the research scientists there are "imported" from Eu as there are simply not enough GB born specialists to work on some of the genetic research, she said the mood in the MRC corridors was very dark indeed.
Aside from the Eu scientists already planning their own "Brexit" strategy so much of the funding depends on the Eu subsidies that they know for sure they will have to shut down facilities when the subsidies dry up. They have already received so many cuts for the UK government funded part of their work that they are under no illusion of what the future holds for life science research in the UK...and the brain drain that will follow as the brightest of this Eu/UK generation leave these shores to continue their research work where they are a) Welcome and b)properly Funded.

I work for the private sector in the same industry for a global French company. I can assure shutting down manufacturing plants and facilities is not difficult, it is easy to relocate resources and write off a few million and I have seen it done several times so I am under no illusion of how easy it is for the multinationals to up sticks and find a good alternative....as someone said before it is the cleaners, the low skilled workers that will suffer the most and lose their jobs.

Sorry I could go on and on but I really don't think that Leave supporters really understand the magnitude of what has happened and that the ship could sink very fast indeed....

"I only see you as a bit of sport anyway, not a real intellectual challenge."
Wow smallfox, and you accuse others of making sneering remarks!
You've surpassed yourself with that one.

Indeed smallfox Indeed

Dapple I don't blame smallfox I imagine it is sheer frustration with the complete lack of understanding the Leave supporter replies have posted on this thread. It is truly unbelievable...

SoyYo, I am near Oxford and confirm that exactly the same is happening here with regards to scientific funding. I don't think the politicians have fully woken up to this yet.

I'd still really like to hear from surfer on a couple of things:

surfer, the 'problem identifying as British' thing. I previously asked you about it – question repeated below – and would genuinely like to hear your answer as I currently don't understand your thinking.

My question: 'This is not self-explanatory at all; it's very unclear and just raises questions. Can you define what this means? What IS identifying as British? How do you do it? Do you think I identify as British? If so, how? If not, why not?'

Also, the freedom of movement thing: you said 'it hasn't affected me, but it has had an impact on other people in terms of jobs. housing & schools.'

Bearing in mind the things posted about freedom of movement both before and since you said this, that argue against what you've said, can you reply to this?

Again, I am genuinely interested in your answer as I currently don't understand on what your assertions are based.

I realise that I am being a bit contradictory - the politicians are the ones cutting funding, but I don't think they have realised the full contribution that scientific research is making to the well being of the country.

SoyYo I also live in the Fens, and what you say resonates very strongly with me. I too have friends who work in biomedical research, and have heard much the same as you. The mood here, particularly in the science departments, is very gloomy. I wanted to add another anecdote: a friend was leaving her lab quite late at night soon after the referendum, when she ran into one of the maintenance staff, who asked her when she was going back home (my friend is Greek). She was stunned. The saddest thing is, the maintenance job wouldn't even exist had it not been for my friend (who wrote the proposals), and the EU programmes that provided much of the funding. The situation re. research funding is really dire, and the recent announcement has done nothing to change that (as it's not clear what the situation is for future proposals).

the maintenance job wouldn't even exist had it not been for my friend (who wrote the proposals), and the EU programmes that provided much of the funding

Appalling. I do wonder what that member of staff would say if were explained to them. Surely one can only blame it on ignorance (I mean that in the proper sense, not as a pejorative) and/or pervasive media and political drip-drip.

Sorry, that wasn't very clear. I meant the 'when she was going back home' comment was appalling.

SapphireStrange Yes, and this has caused quite a bit of trouble, as a significant proportion of the British staff (maintenance, cleaning, catering etc.) were in favour of Brexit, while most of the academic and academic-related staff were not. We try not to discuss it, but it is causing a lot of tension, given that many people's jobs and lives are on the line.

I should add that quite a large proportion of the staff, particularly in the colleges, are from the EU, and are very worried about the future too. This is causing tension as well.

It must be really stressful to be there at the moment, missmoon. Not to mention hard to work effectively. I'm sorry for you and your colleagues.

As for a soft Brexit not being what Liam Fox and David Davis want

Isn't that the point?

Its not, and shouldn't be, about what Dumb and Dumber want.

Its about what the country want and what's in the best interests of the country.

Ken Clark has a book coming out. He's saying in it that over 100 Tory MPs still want to block Brexit apparently. If true there is real trouble in the works.

They can make a good case on the basis of LEAVERS as well as remainers on the basis of there being no workable plan or no plan at all being on the table not being in the best interests of the country nor being what people vote FOR. They can say they are throwing it back for further discussion, rather than blocking it outright. (Of course this makes it potentially more likely that we won't leave at all) Indeed they have a duty to act in the best interests of their constituents and also to uphold what they see the vote as being for.

This is why this concept of what Leavers actually voted FOR and thought they were voting for is so important.

If leaving the single market does seem to be on the table - and it is - then Tory MPs really do have a problem as their Tory voters have a manifesto that says 'protecting British interests in the single market' and may have voted to leave with this in mind.

75% of the population might well not be in favour of a Hard Brexit or No Plan Brexit thus allowing MPs to step up and block Brexit - either temporarily or permanently and they can make a bloody good case for 'disregarding democracy' or should I say - the advisory suggestion of the British Public.

May, in short, has a problem.

missmoon Peregrina yes you know exactly what I am talking about...sorry to hear things are so tough at your place of work.
As someone who already has her own "brexit" strategy in place, I would rather stay here till the end of my working life and continue to contribute with my taxes to this society, but I am absolutely not prepared to put up with any xenophobic abuse from anyone.
I am in a very lucky position but I hate, hate the fact that the country I love, my children's future, my DH homeland going back to when the picts populated Scotland (he will follow me of course), this huge division in society and for what? Empty lies...

The only reason I am contributing to this thread (other than venting) is because if enough people realise how they were lied to maybe, just maybe, there will be enough people protesting to the Govt., signing petitions, etc to call a second referendum.

On the British identity bit I posted a piece a few pages back. I still don't remotely understand how British and Eu identity are incompatible or how indeed this would even be a consideration for Leaving the Eu so I would be interested to understand the thinking behind it too...

Dumb and Dumber

perfect

Red I agree with you.
Indeed they have a duty to act in the best interests of their constituents and also to uphold what they see the vote as being for

Let's hope that Parliament has enough patriotic people (in the truest sense of the word) in it to block the madness of leaving the Eu.

It is not in the best interests of the people of this country, if they explained it properly I think a lot who voted Leave would support it too.

I'm not going to apologise for that remark. Go back and read all the ad hom on me, why should I hide the fact that I don't regard gives the reasons the cocory and others have givenue for their vote as anything other than spurious?

Sorry but the EU army, lack of concessions etc etc all show a major lack of understanding of the topics, and a sought confirmation bias in their analysis. It doesn't show any justifiable reasons. Sorry

I actually think that we really may do have no option BUT to leave the EU now, as much as it pains me to admit.

UNLESS there is a massive reform of the EU (for which we are credited with - which is unlikely to happen). Plus the chances are that the rest of the EU can't wait to get rid of our moaning asses now.

The alternative is being the whipping boy of the EU who get ganged up on all the time and we really will be forced into things we don't want in return for the few we do. Which brings its own kind of problems.

We most definitely have made a rod for our own backs and we will have to lie in the bed we've made for ourselves.

However, in terms of which shower of shit we get, I do think we have an influence in. And I'm sure as hell not punting for the same one as many Brexiteers...

Who wants to leave if the EU changes and we can have the reforms many want?

Yes, but I think the worry here is that we would be well down the route of exiting and would find that we had shut ourselves out. Someone in the London Review of Books a month or so ago predicted that we would spend five years trying to exit and five years trying to get back in.

I actually think that we really may do have no option BUT to leave the EU now, as much as it pains me to admit.

I agree with this Red, and have now come to accept the situation too. But as you say, we need to make sure it is the best possible kind of Brexit.

Unfortunately I agree too Red. I don't think it would be possible to bake a big enough humble pie for us to eat.

If every MP followed their constituents' vote, the vote for leave would be overwhelming (there is no direct correlation between counting areas and constituencies but when calculated roughly by the LibDems it shows the vast majority of constituencies are leave overall of course).

In most Conservative held seats, I don't believe the party will lose the seat if MPs vote against leaving the EU, because of the absence of a viable alternative able to form a government, especially after the boundary changes. May is said to be looking at a projected majority of 80+. Even a lot of Labour voters are said to like her because she represents a "safe pair of hands". No way will all that lead evaporate (as it might have done, had the leader of the opposition been electable) if Art 50 is not implemented.

I don't believe the rise of UKIP will translate into too many conservative lost seats in the next general election, at least in the wealthier conservative constituencies. I don't see a sort of "1930s Germany" type of scenario evolving in the UK if A50 is not invoked.

Not sure that pro-Leave MPs would be able to seek re-election in that scenario, however.