LEAVERS - update on the 'invoke A50 now' petition. I have the reply.

[Surferjet]

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Dear xxxxxx

The Government has responded to the petition you signed – “Invoke Article 50 of The Lisbon Treaty immediately.”.

Government responded:

The British people have voted to leave the EU and their will must be respected and delivered. We should not trigger Article 50 until we have a UK approach and objectives.

The British people have voted to leave the EU and their will must be respected and delivered. The process for leaving the EU and determining our future relationship will be a complex one, so we need to take time to think through our objectives and approach. We want to ensure the best possible outcome for Britain and the future UK-EU relationship. As part of this, the government will of course work closely with the devolved administrations to ensure we get the best deal for the UK as a whole. We should not trigger Article 50 until we have a UK approach and objectives, so Article 50 should not be invoked before the end of this year.

Department for Exiting the European Union

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petition.parliament.uk/petitions/133618?reveal_response=yes

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Thanks,
The Petitions team
UK Government and Parliament

You’re receiving this email because you signed this petition: “Invoke Article 50 of The Lisbon Treaty immediately.”.

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Sorry, that should be British Election Study.

Oh missmoon, leave voters have no problem with control, its just they want to call all the shots.

To control and to be controlled ;-)

@surferjet you like many leave voters are so angry when you've 'won' why is that? Shouldn't you be euphoric that your 'take back control' utopia is nearly here?

You spend lots of angry energy castigating remain voters and in your case categorising them - how about a post on what this shiny bright future holds for us? Since we remain voters are clearly clueless and needed our eyes opening by you wise sages.

What relationship with the EU are we having? 57% of our exports go to them, as we don't want them controlling things for us I assume this means we don't want to be part of the single market. So what other trading bloc of 500 million people who live in the developed world are we going to replace them with? What happens to the City of London?

You're evidently anti-London based on your wholly inaccurate views of the population there which leads me to think that the gigantic economic engine of this country is also something you think we can expend with. How do we replace it?

And if you think the people who haven't sold us all down the river aren't all loaded and absolutely part of this 'metropolitan elite' then you are as deluded as those you deride.

Tiggytape - agreed but the genius of the Leave campaign was to not have a plan you were voting for, just vague slogans like 'take back control' 'regain our soverignty' 'make Britian great again' and playing on classic British emotions of feeling like the underdog (we plucky Brits versus those pesky Europeans), nostalgia (make British great again, wanting communities to feel like 'outs' again) etc etc
And this worked for many different groups voting for many different things based on many different values because there was no detail, it could all be distilled into anti-EU, anti-immigrant, anti-'control' sentiments.
The sad fact is many of these so called regulations are there to either protect workers, the environment and to ensure businesses have an equal and even playing field and to ensure trade can be done smoothly across borders.

It was initially 6 nations. The UK, Ireland and Denmark made up the 9, with Norway producing its first No vote at the time. However, Harold Wilson managed to swing a yes to staying in two years later.

At the time of the original formation of the European Coal and Steel Community we were busy shedding our Empire, so could be said to be occupied elsewhere.

But yes, there has always been a low level chuntering, but it's not been the main issue by a long chalk. Thatcherism and the destruction of industry resonates with a lot more people, IMO.

The surprising nature of the result isn't so surprising when you realise that South of England Tories were in the main against; and other people wanted to believe the lies they were told, like the money for the NHS.

We can't really infer much from 'most referendums' because it's only the third UK wide one we have had.

One of the interesting things about EU regulations and their costs, is that the figure that the leave campaign came up with wasn't all EU regulation, many are international agreements like Basel III and the Paris climate change agreements. Basel alone takes up about a quarter of all the costs cited.

Yep. Just goes to show the strength of anti EU feeling when 52% voted to leave knowing all the potential pitfalls.

"52% voted to leave knowing all the potential pitfalls."

But they didn't did they, as has been outlined the 52% wasn't a homogeneous block of voters, more a bunch of disparate groups that were sold a lot of promises that will not all be fulfilled.

Its in no way a denigration of the 52% to say that many were not fully aware of all of the facts, conversely many were not fully aware of the implication of the decision at all. Its been well documented about the views of some of those who voted leave as well as the lack of understanding some had about the implications, so you can't make the statement that you did above.

So you all knew that you were voting for, at best, recession, and at worst, long term decrease in living standards?

In terms of taking back control, I've been reading an article from Conservative home about how Brexit will end up increasing the need for lobbying.

The article made the point that groups needed to be effective in this and it was up to them to do it successfully and if they didn't it was their fault for not ensuring their interests weren't over looked by Brexit.

There is a problem here though: the groups that are most likely to be unable to lobby in many cases are effectively are the very same groups that are most likely to have voted out. The poor and the disenfranchised.

Or they were the most privileged in our society and the most able to lobby. The group that this writer for Conservative Home obviously belongs too.

There is a certain irony that leaves a bitter taste in my mouth for this reason.

Especially when you consider that the home of lobbying, the USA, is currently going through an election where the people who are supporting Trump are the very people for whom lobbying has perhaps forgotten the most - hence why Trump is so popular in certain circles (I note here that religious groups DON'T tend to be Trump supporters as much - possibly precisely because they are fairly good at getting their interests represented by lobbying. The big exception of note here, is of course, the NRA). The whole notion of Trump being against the elite - is being against the establishment who are good at getting heard and good at lobbying through being in organised interest groups.

The reality is very clear here, that the only people who will be able to take back control are those in the privileged groups who have the means to get their political voices heard.

This existing gap will certainly not be filled by UKIP.

Simply because UKIP are totally unable to recruit suitable candidates to represent people at a local level and organise a leadership election which doesn't descend into levels of farce that make the Labour party look positively regimented and unified. So expecting them to go beyond that and find people to lobby effectively isn't going to happen whether Banks or Farage want to or not.

And you can fully expect trade unions to be crippled by post Brexit measures in addition to this increased need for lobbying...

In short, the only people taking back control, will in effect, be big business and elites as they are the ones most able to shove their concerns and interests under the noses of Whitehall, MPs and Lords.

We will end up more like the USA with further polarisation rather than advancing the concerns and needs of those who needed change most of all.

To stress the point further, the inability and frankly unwillingness of Leave voters to organise into clear and coherent groups representing a variety of visions for Brexit, means the only groups that will do this, will most likely be those of the privileged.

Not being able to articulate what you actually voted FOR means it will be assumed and interpreted by the privileged.

Which will be a bloody car crash.

Red, as I've said from the beginning the appropriation by the leave campaign of the the Trump elites narrative, as well as the Making Britain great again ( which if it hadn't had other connotations would have been called Britain First!), along with "taking back control" were essentially meaningless soundbite that other could project whatever they wanted on to.

The harsh reality of the situation is that the leave vote was driven by a group of people with a highly neo liberal economic stance, who not only had the resources to drive a populist vote in their favour but will also be able to influence the mechanics of brexit their way too.

So you all knew that you were voting for, at best, recession, and at worst, long term decrease in living standards?

My mum voted leave, she didn't vote for that. She voted leave so that 'all the foreigners will go home and no more terrorists come here' (her words).

I've kind of got to the point of thinking that we actually should leave the EU and just go and die of embarrassment in a corner somewhere with a failure of an economy, Scotland independent, the troubles in NI on fire again, and all at our own hand.

Surferjet still not seeing any replies from you on what our shiny bright Brexit future is just more attacks on Remainers....

And you won't.

Apparently it's completely up to Remainers, experts, intellectuals and the elite to come up with that.

Not Leavers!

They are, just not on here.

Oh jolly good, when should we expect the press release unveiling the top-notch team of strategists and negotiators with the fully coherent set of concrete aims? Things are getting slightly dire, so a bit of urgency would be appreciated.

surfer, for the third time of asking- please can you explain why voting Leave was voting for the 'greater good'?

Surely you can explain that if it was your reason for voting leave?

< I'm at work > will get back on later.

Re the straegists, sure I read that the government was going to "order in" lots of management consultants for the trade negotiations capped at 1000 GBP (per person per day I assume). If so, just want to clarify that's an extremely low skill level, even on bulk rates, for that fee. It's general business analyst / assistant at absolute best. Nowhere near the skills level required to do a good job in such a specialized area IMO.

It wil cost the Great British Taxpayer big bucks though I'm sure. And nobody will notice the quality gap at government level will they.

No due diligence, no process and no probity checks epitomizes this fiasco. As do unanswered questions raised yet again on this thread. And lots of people bought the shit because they are simply not sufficiently skilled in the necessary areas to spot it really was shit. That's why so much of the world thinks the British people are thick for the outcome of this vote.

It's embarrassing but also very sad.

Dapple, other people have been on since and been more eloquent than I on this, but on the possible 'double standards' you talk about – the vast majority of other EU citizens in the UK positively add to the economy, as opposed to draining resources; they learn the language very fast (and their children, despite another Leave trope about kids speaking other languages holding back their kids at school, learn even faster); they generally integrate very well with the existing community.

There aren't, by these lights, many negative remarks to make about other EU citizens here. Not true ones, anyway.

surfer, again, others have been back on since and made similar points, but:
'in London you're either rich or poor, not many inbetweens'. Are you familiar with London? I've lived here for 15 years and do not find that to be an accurate statement at all.

'The rich want to stay that way so they'll vote for whatever/whoever they think will benefit them. All they're interested in is themselves & how much money they can make. They don't give a toss about the poor.'

The rich by your definition are people who would welcome a deregulated economy and work environment in the UK. I brought this up in a post yesterday about the possibility of a hard Brexit that would cause us to lose much industry regulation and workers' rights and encourage low pay and zero hours culture to flourish. Currently, the employment legislation that protects us overwhelmingly originates in EU law.

Do you think people who favour deregulation and lack of workers' rights were likely to have been Remain voters?

'scared of change - self explanatory. Some people are scared of change & just vote for what they know.'

As others have said, there is a difference between change and unknowns. Red addressed this yesterday (search for 'I'm not afraid of change. I am afraid of the unknown.') Do you have a response to that post?

'problem identifying as British'. This is not self-explanatory at all; it's very unclear and just raises questions. Can you define what this means? What IS identifying as British? How do you do it? Do you think I identify as British? If so, how? If not, why not?

'like being controlled - yes. why else would you want to remain part of a massive Union who decides things for you? - vote leave & answer to no one but ourselves.'

We would/will have to answer to (or put another way, agree and maintain trade terms with) the WTO and to any countries with whom we want to trade. Which do you think is more likely to gain the more favourable terms – a 28-member-strong trading block of 450 million people with a wide range of goods and industries on offer, or a small individual country with narrow and diminishing industry and goods and a mainly service-based economy?

Do you know who decides things in the EU? It is the Council of Ministers, made up of the ELECTED heads of member states, and the European Parliament, made up of ELECTED MEPs.

The leave vipers have gone to a secret realm

Translation: they've gone into hiding after realising they've voted in favour of a spin campaign heavily embellished with exaggerated facts, figures and untruths. Same as the campaign leaders.

Not one person that I have spoken too either in RL or on this forum, in favour of the leave campaign, has cited a reason for leaving that doesn't involve immigration. If the case for leaving Europe was so crystal cut, why haven't the leaders that dragged us into this mess stuck around, and why are they only now putting together a strategy for the exit plan? Because not a single sole of the leave campaign actually believed that they would win. The whole thing, from start to finish was a massive cock-waving exercise by a bunch of idiots who no doubt stand to gain a fortune from lucrative deals negotiated on the back of this.