LEAVERS - update on the 'invoke A50 now' petition. I have the reply.

[Surferjet]

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Dear xxxxxx

The Government has responded to the petition you signed – “Invoke Article 50 of The Lisbon Treaty immediately.”.

Government responded:

The British people have voted to leave the EU and their will must be respected and delivered. We should not trigger Article 50 until we have a UK approach and objectives.

The British people have voted to leave the EU and their will must be respected and delivered. The process for leaving the EU and determining our future relationship will be a complex one, so we need to take time to think through our objectives and approach. We want to ensure the best possible outcome for Britain and the future UK-EU relationship. As part of this, the government will of course work closely with the devolved administrations to ensure we get the best deal for the UK as a whole. We should not trigger Article 50 until we have a UK approach and objectives, so Article 50 should not be invoked before the end of this year.

Department for Exiting the European Union

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petition.parliament.uk/petitions/133618?reveal_response=yes

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EU migration isn't uncontrolled. It increases slightly (in net terms) year on year, and is constrained by the total population eligible to come here. Why not use the term "free movement", which is technically correct, and not as loaded?

Small - I was simply repeating the phrase that had been used in the thread. People had said immigration and uncontrolled immigration but no one was picked up on it. I was quite specific about uncontrolled immigration from the EU. Hay ho! At no point have I ever seen the leave campaign use the word swarms. UKIP maybe but that has nothing to do with the leave campaign. Please do not mix up what UKIP and Nigel Farage have said or done with anything that the leave campaign have done.
Peregrina - I was asked to expand on the simple yes/no vote and I did so, so I was answering someone's question. I can hardly be brought to book for that. We leave voters are continuously asked to expand on why we voted the way we did so that is one of my reasons.
Obviously Sapphire I have no idea what the outcome of the negotiations with the EU will come up with but as we have been trying to change the EU for many years with little success I feel it better to leave them too it. I really don't think we were ever going to have any luck changing things.

Corcory, can I repeat the last partof my question? I'm genuinely interested in knowing what might happen when/if deals are made, because any set of deals will only please some Leave voters:

'How will you feel if any eventual deal does not include this point [uncontrolled immigration from the EU]?'

I don't think the question is racist at all, I think it must be taken alongside the continual points made by the leave campaign about our services.

BTW British pensioners in Spain are twice as likely to be hospitalised than their Spanish peers.

Cocory , I don't think you can disengage the leave campaign from ukip, they were one of the driving forces for the referendum, Farage fronted tv debates etc.

This is the problem of the leave vote. There were so many factions who thought they had promises made!

Where's surfer? I would like some answers to the questions asked.

Dapple, are we continuing the conversation about immigrants/expats in Spain?

Corcory. I said 'fair enough' to your original answer. I just pointed out that your interpretation of what was being asked wasn't the same as many others.

I agree with Smallfox - given the huge publicity which Farage got, the Leave campaign can't say that being against EU immigration wasn't a factor.

I'm on my phone, and on an island in the adriatic so sorry for not linking to the study, but it found the British pensioners are more likely to put their own health at risk too. Essentially a lot behave like they're on holiday rather than permanent residents.

Totally understandable, just sipping at some of the local chilled red myself lol

Sapphire - yes, sorry I had to go and practise.
I may well be wrong, but I just feel sometimes there are double standards. Anything can be said about British immigrants to Spain, eg they are a drain on resources, they get ratarsed and behave appallingly, they don't learn the language or make any attempt to integrate with Spanish people and so on. Now, all this and more may be true - is true - but any negative remarks about people from overseas moving here is immediately pounced on as racist.

I don't thino it's a fair comparison, the brits in Spain thing hasn't been the driving force of this referendum and it's often posted as a reposite to discussions on uncontrolled immigration.

It's incredibly depressing that all these threads have become so predictable.

surfer, like so many before her, seems to have disappeared rather than attempt any defence of the point put to her.

Quite likely to pop up later on and pretend no questions were asked.

And then they wonder why Remain are annoyed.

Sapphire - I would be disappointed if a deal didn't include curtailing freedom of movement but I would like to see the government try and negotiate as hard as possible so if the deal they come back with doesn't contain and I feel they have tried there best what else can I do than accept it.

Freedom of movement or eu passport for UK banks?

so if the deal they come back with doesn't contain and I feel they have tried there best what else can I do than accept it.

What is your definition of 'doing their best' though?

We'll never know how hard anyone tried?

Will you really be happy if nothing changes for the better and many things are actually worse.

Corcory - whose freedom of movement would you like to see curtailed? All immigrants, just EU immigrants, EU immigrants with the exception of those in certain job categories, EU immigrants outside a certain restricted age band? EU immigrants without a certain level of education?
Would this then apply to our own citizens in the EU? So boot out all the pensioners from Spain and France?

On the Brits in Spain, funny you should mention that, when I was there visiting family (Costa Blanca, HUGE British expat community) all they had to say to me an my Scottish husband was "so sorry about Brexit", what a shame, etc etc. NOT ONE of them had a word to say against the Brits established and living there. Or any other migrants for that matter and they also have a lot of people from Romania, North Africa, etc, etc.
Though for the Brits settled there I think it is a different story and they are all very worried. We were waiting for a shop to open and so went into a so called "English bar" at siesta time. I asked the bar lady for a drink in Spanish, she looked at me confused, so then I asked (in English) "do you prefer English or Spanish?" to which she replied "English please"...fair enough. DH went on to ask "How long have you lived here" to which she replied "20 years". She is not atypical.
Now...if the same situation arose here, say a Polish bar or shop and the owners couldn't even utter basic sentences in English I doubt the locals would be so forgiving and understanding. The Leave hate campaign has made sure of that.

Yes the elderly Brits are a burden on the free healthcare system in Spain, though to be fair some do have private insurance too.
I hasten to add none of my highly educated Spanish family depend on the tourist trade to make a living, like most of the working people I know there.

So...if Leave campaigners fell for this "uncontrolled immigration" BS or that wages are driven down by low skilled EU migrants, and the reason there is no work for locals, etc etc. Let me leave you with another little anecdote closer to home:
My DS is on summer hols from Uni. Has never had a job in his life despite just turning 20. He is lucky that we can help him out with his uni & accommodation costs. He was bored. I said get a job. So he looked for a job and within 1 week had two job offers. Remember no work experience, only GCSE/A levels and he was applying for low skilled jobs. He took a Supermarket night shift offer (3 x 10 hour night shifts a week) to help pay for some new musical gear he wants/needs for the next academic year.

He is finding it hard but sticking to it. One week into the shift work he came home to say out of the 8 people that started with him (all Brits) 3 dropped off in the first week, simply didn't turn up for work anymore.
The veg packing plant in my fenland town is always looking for people, the only ones that bother to apply are the migrants, because the locals who like to hate the immigrants would not want to lose their generous 3+kids benefits and be no better off.

This is the reality of Britain today. No work ethic in a lot of these so called Leave support (UKIP really) areas.
And I have to put up with peoples judgemental looks and tut tuts due to my foreign accent? And read on the media/FB/twitter all the hate that is spouted against immigrants? And feel uncomfortable in what I thought was my country?
It is outrageous in my view. In case anyone is interested, I have always worked, as my career has progressed so have my tax/NI contributions yet somehow now, all of a sudden, the country is too crowded?
Till UKIP and the Tories started stirring up this BS no one in this country cared one jot about the Eu one way or another, in fact most people were only vaguely interested and generally quite benign towards it seeing the advantages of cheap holidays, booze, (culture? in some cases) and better food coming to these shores.

As I am of Eu descent it is not so obvious at first glance till I open my mouth and I don't get the abuse some of the British born Asian & Caribbean communities are getting. Reading their stories make mine look lame in comparison.

I don't know how else to illustrate what I have observed both from abroad and here. And don't even get me started on fellow colleagues dotted around Europe who simply think Britain has gone barking mad, specially my German and French colleagues.
Their standard of living and work life balance is certainly higher than people in similar positions in this country.

Whatever the "Leave" camp was trying to protect (other than advance their own selfish political careers) I am 100% sure it wasn't the patriotic and right thing to do for this country.

SapphireStrange

I've only been away from this thread for about 3 hours. I do have other things to do sometimes. I'm not deliberately ignoring You.

Anyway, you asked me to explain my last post.
London elite - Yes, in London you're either rich or poor, not many inbetweens. The rich want to stay that way so they'll vote for whatever/whoever they think will benefit them. All they're interested in is themselves & how much money they can make. They don't give a toss about the poor.
scared of change - self explanatory. Some people are scared of change & just vote for what they know.
problem identifying as British - again, self explanatory. The three main areas voting overwhelmingly remain were Scotland, NI, & London. London has a high immigrant population,so it's not surprising many of them identify as European & want to remain part of the EU. Apart from Scotland, NI, & London, the rest of the U.K. voted to leave.
like being controlled - yes. why else would you want to remain part of a massive Union who decides things for you? - vote leave & answer to no one but ourselves.

vote leave & answer to no one but ourselves.

Do you honestly believe that?

I've always said I could begin to comprehend those who were striving for this but, and it's a massive but, IT IS NOT GOING TO HAPPEN.

Surely you can see that.

London elite? Aren't all of the prominent leave leaders part of a London elite? Whatever happens with brexit it's almost certain that London will be more powerful and influential than before.

"Yes, in London you're either rich or poor, not many inbetweens"

A totally incorrect statement, London has some of the most deprived areas of the country, and the wealthiest, but it also has lots of areas filled with people who are very average.

"problem identifying as British"

Hilarious, you mean problem identifying as your very narrow and particular definition of British.

The leave and answer to no one but ourselves statement shows a distinct lack of understanding of international trade, politics, defence and immeasurable other issues.

All showing that you have some kind of 19th century understanding of the UK, its role in the world and are going to be bitterly disappointed when your pomp and circumstance dreams aren't fulfilled.

Oxford, Cambridge, Reading and Wokingham, Winchester, Manchester and Liverpool voted Remain. Parts of Wales also voted Remain. None of these count as London.

surfer please can you explain why voting Leave was voting for the 'greater good'?

Leeds, York, Bristol, and Brighton also voted Remain. Leave won in the coastal towns, rural areas, suburbs of large cities, and (by a small margin) in the large northern cities.

On the being scared of change point: Wouldn't this be more accurately aimed at those areas of low immigration, who have voted out because of immigration?

Areas that are used to change are more likely to be less conservative (with a small c).

I meant to say, in the other large northern cities.

like being controlled: interesting that this should come up. The British Election Survey (which has been carried out pre- and post every election since 1960s) measures voting intentions and views on a range of issues, including law and order / death penalty type questions. The last available data is from 2015 (after the last election), but it shows a strong correlation between "authoritarian" views, and views on the EU / voting intentions on leaving the EU. So authoritarian attitudes are strongly correlated with Leave voters. Could be a spurious correlation linked to age or education, but in any case it refutes the argument that Remain voters like "being controlled". Quite the opposite in fact.