Brexit-lite here we come

[Bearbehind]

Theresa May has today said the UK wants to maintain the closest possible economic ties with the EU and to guarantee the rights of EU citizens living in the EU.

Are any Leave voters actually happy with that?

The big difference larry is I didn't even mention the destructive nature of the EU (I've never said the EU was perfect) whereas you stated that EU rules were petty and self serving yet can't back that up.

I think a lot of people just don't see the EU's influence (petty or suffocating however it's perceived) as benign. The referendum was our only chance in 40 years to "get off the bus" for people who didn't agree with the seeming function creep.

In 1975 people voted for a trading union with 9? other countries - they got the EU - which makes laws on all sorts of things in addition to trade and there's 3 times as many countries involved now, with more in the future. There's definitely a feeling that a Remain vote wasn't a vote for the status quo. I know we'd "opted out" of the "ever closer union", but having read some of the document that the French and German foreign ministers produced it seemed quite sinister. I know it's not popular to want to be "British" but I don't want to live in a United States of Europe. I'm happy with a trading partnership but I want our tax policies and regulations to be determined in the UK for the benefit of UK people and businesses.

We "opt out" of a lot of things like the single currency and schengen borders. We do a lot of things differently from mainland Europe (drive on the other side of the road etc). I don't think we've ever been "all in" with Europe.

Individual laws that affect us positively or negatively? Honestly not a clue. I read the "55 laws that we tried to object to that got voted in anyway" document (Leave) and was none the wiser on what they actually meant. Just had a google for recent EU regulations and landed here. Nope. Still not a clue. Then you get the media reporting how the EU rules determine the "bendyness of bananas" or size of strawberries or whatever. I couldn't point to a particular EU that directly benefits me either (that we either didn't have at all or wouldn't have implemented if we weren't part of the EU - why would we make laws that are already covered by EU law?).

But these people must be doing something, right? I mean, there's an awful lot of them and it costs a lot of money to have an overarching EU that makes laws and regulations and travels between Brussels and Strasbourg. We're told it's going to take a long time to separate these out. If we'd Remained, would it even have been possible to leave in the future, no matter what direction the future EU took? Logically if you add more countries does it not mean more compromises and even more difficulty getting agreements between all parties?

Bear,

That was never my main point. It was part of a analogy in response to another one. It is tiresome to debate trivia and get off the main point. If you believe the EU is on a path to self destruction, it is definitely far from 'perfect'. I think that is a far more germane issue to discuss than petty rules.

I have certainly benefitted from the equal pay legislation brought in during the mid seventies. I can remember local firms before then advertising differential pay rates for men and women for the same jobs. Women were not often invited to join the pension schemes either. These may have been UK laws, but were, I believe brought in to harmonise with EEC law, prior to our entry.

I have benefitted from clean beaches. The tide went out a long way on the beach we frequented as a child - below the sewage outfall, so the sand was stained brown around the outfall. Do clean beaches matter? Yes, if your health is at stake.

It's not actually possible to leave now, despite what Brexiteers tell you.

I'm happy with a trading partnership but I want our tax policies and regulations to be determined in the UK for the benefit of UK people and businesses

In the globalised world the notion that we can have full control over our own borders and make all of our own laws is obsolete, it’s not possible if we want to take part in the emerging global rules based trading system.

Any trade deal with strike with the US and Canada, for example, will allow their authorities and corporations to have input into our consumer and environmental regulations, and the ability to sue our government if we pass legislation that impacts their profits. That is not specific to those two countries, it's a fact of globalised trade deals such as NAFTA, TPP, TTIP.

If you believe the EU is on a path to self destruction, it is definitely far from 'perfect'.

Are you on the same thread as me?

I don't believe the EU is on a path to self destruction and have never said that's what I thought.

I've also answered your question about whether a union has to be fully harmonised to succeed- I don't think that is the case.

The EU will need to evolve over time, as any organisation does but I think we are better being at the table as those changes are made so we can influence them rather than being on the outside and still being affected by them if we are striving for 'the closest possible economic ties'

Now can we have than petty self serving rule please? Surely you can think of one if you felt strongly enough to post saying that was the case in the first place?

Equaly, I don't see the tariffs being so high as to seriously damage trade

Tariffs of any kind damage trade, UK consumers will be hit by higher prices, and UK exporters will pay tariffs at destination countries.

Reduction in the single market and coming out of the customs union will produce hassle at borders where shipments are held up over questions of customs declarations, complex rules of origin, and VAT payments.

Any delay affects trade and affects profits.

The combination of price increase, increased paperwork and delays will prompt businesses that have invested here for access to the EU market, to relocate to mainland Europe to avoid the hassle.

Manon,

The devaluation will more than compensate for any imposed tariffs. Imports, however, will be considerably more expensive. Given that, as many have pointed out in this thread, we are not a super successful industrial nation, this could provide us with some breathing space to address our lack of competitiveness.

Manon is correct.

The driving rest rules of 48 hours break a week were introduced by the EU in 2006, not the 70's. Was objected to by many unions as well as small businesses.

Bear What about minimum VAT rates?

What about them carol?

Well as the minimum VAT rate is lower than our current VAT rate it seems a funny thing to complain about.

As is the fact that the wicked EU won't allow businesses to exploit and over work their drivers putting other road users at risk, and have used empirical data to allow them to set these limits, oh its terrible.

We are restricted as to use of zero rate and minimum rate of VAT, we are also restricted as to maximum VAT rates.
Governments should be able to set their own fiscal policies, but we are tied into EU rules on consumption taxes.
Smallfox That is exactly the problem with EU laws, they may make sense for a large business but not a self-employed driver as mentioned above. The EU damages the flexibility of small businesses.

I think those laws are for public saftey carol and are just fine, the VAT thing is about harminisation and stops governments from manipulating markets by removing or slashing VAT on certain items.

The VAT thing is basically not a big deal its about harmonisation of the business environment. Its also quite likely that we agree to follow this as part of any brexit agreement.

I represented the family of a woman who was killed by a Lorry driver who fell asleep at her inquest prior to 2006.

Yes, quite, it's EU red tape until it's your husband, son, or father who is killed. After that, people then start campaigning for more restrictions to stop it happening to others.

We've fought hard over the years for decent health and safety regulations for good reason, and to see them ripped up because a few selfish businessmen, aided and abetted by Tory Governments, want to make a quick buck infuriates me.

Quite. And the nature of that particular piece of 'red tape' (vomit) is that we aren't able to point to the people who've benefitted from it, because we don't know who would've been killed by exhausted drivers who now hasn't been.

Exhausted drivers are one thing, someone who drives for a couple of hours a day, but 7 days a week is not exhausted.
You may think EU harmonised tax laws and uniting fiscal policy (which is what VAT is and the EU wants to move towards more of) is ok, I don't.

Caroldecker I'm not old enough to remember this (honest) but I have access to Croner's going back to the mid-70s so it's easy enough for me to look up. In 1979 the weekly rest period was increased from 24 to 29 hours, immediately preceded or followed by a daily rest period of 11 hours - so 40 hours total. It's now 45 hours (not 48) per week, which can be reduced to 24 hours every other week as long as the time's made up in one block within the next 3 weeks.

None of which has much to do with the EU referendum.

The 45 hour weekly rest requirement was introduced in 1985.

Carol, someone driving a couple of hours a day wouldn't the hours limits that require the breaks would they? So they'd be unaffected by the time limits.

Quite funny, that you don't really understand this issue that you are complaining about really.

Here read up on it :

www.crunch.co.uk/blog/contractor-advice/2012/12/13/hours-and-rest-breaks-for-uk-goods-vehicle-drivers-part-2/

That page is for goods vehicle drivers and the rules are slightly different.

But generally any 'in scope' (of the EU rules) driving at all means you need to stick to the weekly rest requirements.

Most 'taxis' however aren't in scope, only big (9 seater plus) minibuses are in scope and I wouldn't describe those as a 'taxi', they're very definitely minibuses. Why shouldn't their drivers be subject to the same rules as drivers of other small buses? And why shouldn't bus drivers be subject to the same (or preferably stricter) rules as lorry drivers?

There would be some sort of rules imposed no matter what, the industry needs regulating. Nobody, except slave-driving company bosses and drivers wanting to earn extra overtime by pushing themselves, complain about EU drivers' hours, they just accept them as necessary regulation.

There's an old film called Hell Drivers (available on Youtube) which goes some way to explaining why drivers' hours regulations are desirable.

Smallfox - we were talking about a mini bus driver who does an hour or so in the morning then another in the afternoon to do school pick ups during term time. He then wanted to use his minibus at the weekends to do group bookings for nights out etc. But he can't do that as he doesn't get an uninterrupted 45 hrs rest period. So it's you that doesn't know the issue.
It is far from unsafe for someone to work a couple of hours a day 5 days a week then evenings at the weekend.

Look at the rule book, I've posted it here,

www.gov.uk/guidance/drivers-hours-passenger-vehicles/1-eu-and-aetr-rules-on-drivers-hours

The scenario that you outline isn't going to be effected because it does not go over the maximum 56 hours per week or 90 hour per fortnight limit.

Wouldn't the rules not also apply because it is a "Vehicle used for the carriage of passengers on regular services with a route that does not exceed 50 km."

Think so !