Brexit-lite here we come

[Bearbehind]

Theresa May has today said the UK wants to maintain the closest possible economic ties with the EU and to guarantee the rights of EU citizens living in the EU.

Are any Leave voters actually happy with that?

I believe most countries have good control of their own law making. Much more than we currently have. It's not an unreasonable aim. I don't see the US being made to be told what to do very often.

'Good control' is different to 'full control', which you told us was enjoyed by most of the world upthread. Not the US, most of the world. Anyone would think you were trying to water down your claim. So let's hear the list.

*Surferjet:
*
Have you spoken to all 15 million leave voters? 

We were asked one question - do you want to remain in the EU or do you want to leave?

The majority voted to leave.

We are leaving the EU.

A) have you spoken to them all? You don't even speak for them all
B) majority didn't vote to leave. 37% of the electorate did. Another swathe of the population weren't allowed to vote
C) does none of this Brexit delay worry you at all, you're still so convinced it's going to happen?

Can't believe we have to point this out. When you leave there are consequences. Like in a divorce you have to decide who gets to keep what. Or are you living in some fantasy world where you hold all the cards and happy to walk away with nothing?

Another swathe of the population weren't allowed to vote

Oh give it a rest.

Citizens get a vote. It's that simple. If you want a vote, commit to citizenship.

If there are reasons for remaining a foreign national settled in the UK that you find compelling; that's great, you can do that and nobody will have an issue with it, but the payoff is that you don't get a vote.

It's a choice and a better choice than many in this life TBH.

Just15minutes - so why were the Commonwealth citizens allowed a vote, no matter how short a time they had been here?

Because they're Commonwealth citizens

It's not as though this system wasn't transparent and known way ahead of the referendum.

Not a single EU passport holder I know IRL finds this odd or unfair.

It's one of those MN- only moans.

Just15Mins you misunderstand me I don't have an issue with who voted though I personally think it's a shame 16/17 years olds didn't get to vote when they will live with the consequences way beyond our lifetime.

My issue is with 'we won duh, get over it' leave voters claiming they got a majority. It's well know Nigel Farage himself said if the result was 48-52 he'd demand a second referendum.

It's still my view all leave voters spend more time moaning at Remainers and telling them it's democracy stupid than actually articulating - what did you vote for and how are we going to get it (a method that doesn't involve the having of and eating of cake)

It's still my view all leave voters spend more time moaning at Remainers and telling them it's democracy stupid than actually articulating - what did you vote for and how are we going to get it (a method that doesn't involve the having of and eating of cake)

This is all I hear from Leave voters too. I would genuinely like to know what they voted for and how they think the government is doing going about it.

A large proportion of Brexit voters want

How do you know what they want? No one knows. How could they?

I initially thought a second referendum was silly. Now I think there you be a second referendum to clarify, asking exactly what kind of Brexit do you want, giving 3 or 4 options.

Then the numpty protest voters can rethink and perhaps reconsider if their protest votes were really wise and if they life outside the EU could ever produce the glorious immigrant-free heaven they envisaged.

(Waits for Brexiteers to pile in wailing I didn't protest vote, I'm not anti-immigration yadda yadda)

TooTired that's how elections work

Those with a vote get to use it, those without don't.

I've lived through some bloody upsetting election results (the failed attempt to abandon FPTP being one of them) but I don't believe I've ever reacted by criticizing the extent or limits of the franchise after the event. It's just really odd to me.

Just, a referendum isn't like an election though, is it? In an election you're voting for representatives.

I don't see why someone who is involved and engaged, who voted (or would have but wasn't allowed to), shouldn't criticise. It's my firm opinion that if you don't vote, you can't moan – and the flipside of that is, obviously, that if you DO vote, you absolutely have a right to criticise.

If you're involved and engaged, you'd do anything reasonable to secure yourself a vote, surely?

TBH, if you don't have a citizenship- based franchise, I don't see how else you could do it.

I don't get your point, Just, sorry.

Really?

Yes, genuinely.

To recap:

You expressed surprise at people 'criticizing the extent or limits of the franchise after the event'; I replied with 'if you DO vote, you absolutely have a right to criticise.'

It's your response I don't understand: 'If you're involved and engaged, you'd do anything reasonable to secure yourself a vote, surely?'

It's the 'secure yourself a vote' I don't get. We were talking about voting and then criticising afterwards, no? Not about securing a vote?

It's a really mild, hypothetical form of gerrymandering isn't it;

"Oh people with X characteristic would have voted my way, I wish those X people had a vote. We might have won if they did."

But people in group X are people who (mostly) could have had votes if they'd taken action Y (naturalised) but they chose not to.

I think we're at cross-purposes, Just. All I meant to argue was that anyone who voted has a right to criticise the outcome/methods afterwards if they don't like it.

But on your gerrymandering point, Too actually says 'I don't have an issue with who voted'.

Just to repeat myself I understand how elections work. I object to being told the majority of us (being UK & NI) voted to leave. They didn't as a fact.

I'm genuinely interested though as a leave voter what are you voting for? Not why did you vote but what is our Brexit future, what does it look like to you. Because I am one of those doom laden Remainers who want to one day explain to my children why we made what I consider to be an ill-thought out decision which has no plan (on a majority we don't even accept from unions to strike --but that's another gripe)

Just to repeat myself I understand how elections work. I object to being told the majority of us (being UK & NI) voted to leave. They didn't as a fact.

I'm genuinely interested though as a leave voter what are you voting for? Not why did you vote but what is our Brexit future, what does it look like to you. Because I am one of those doom laden Remainers who want to one day explain to my children why we made what I consider to be an ill-thought out decision which has no plan (on a majority we don't even accept from unions to strike --but that's another gripe)

An even smaller number voted to Remain, and an even smaller number did not care. Of the 3 options, leave was the most popular.

Caroldecker you're just flipping words around. I've made my point 3 times now, unbothered if you disagree with me.

Just because something is decided on by more people than others does not make it the correct decision. More Nazis than Jews didn't make Jewish genocide right. More homophobes than homosexuals doesn't make castrating or jailing gay people the correct decision.

But it's precisely this nitpicking of little things that I get from most leave voters, lets not discuss the fucking huge monumental issues main points of Brexit - it's so frustrating. I to try point things out or to question things said by the leave campaign and I get the following:

This is democracy. You lost. Get over it
Stop whinging
Wah wah throwing dummies out of your pram

I'm ready to have an intelligent discussion. I'm not whining or being a sore loser. I want to know what leave voters were voting for? And in practical terms, not fantasist having cake and eating it vision.

tootired You have heard what Leavers voted for and you call it fantasist. There is nowhere else to go I'm afraid.
You will either be proved right or wrong over the next 10 years.

Christ this is soul destroying.

It's fine for Leave voters to say 'I voted for rainbows and unicorns' and Remain are wrong to even question that.

Of the 3 options, leave was the most popular.

The % of the electorate that didn't vote - they were not unhappy enough with the status quo to vote Leave.

So, Leave voters form the minority of the population.

I voted against continuing the UK's EU membership.

It's not that confusing, honestly