Does anyone else find themselves getting more sympathetic to the other side

[whydidhesaythat]

I don't know if this is just another stage in the cycle of grief but I'm starting to feel that:

Those of us who were doing very nicely out of Europe thank you ignored those who didn't

EU money can go into buildings but that's not the same thing as helping people

People outside the urban centres felt the EU was just another siphon of power away from them

London patronises the regions

Not everyone got to go on a gap year to a European country so why should they be bothered about my kids having one?

There actually is a non racist anti immigration argument

I'm not saying any of this right, it may just be another reaction....but does anyone else find themselves empathising with the other side more than they did?

The Guardian, The Metro, The Times, The Financial Times, The Mail on Sunday, The Observer, and The Mirror were all pro-remain.

The BBC also showed bias towards the remain side. For example, as News-Watch found, out of 40 editions of Newsnight, 25 of their guests supported Remain but only there were only 14 guests on the Leave side.

Hopefully, the country will unite under Theresa May, I have great confidence in her & feel if anyone can pull this off, she can

Don't be ridiculous. First of all, this is just the beginning of divisions that will last a generation, it's going to get a lot worse. Secondly, the woman who wanted to withdraw from the ECHR, and endorsed the notorious 'Go Home' posters is not the person to unite this country.

Anyway, once the economic effects take hold, they will be longlasting, Leave voters will turn on the government claiming they were 'betrayed', and they were, but the truth was always out there, they just chose to ignore it.

Winterbiscuit A Wikipedia quote, well that makes it so, doesn't it? Did you by any chance write it. Any movement towards integration is always going to encounter nationalism. At the moment it looks as though we are in a historical cycle of the rise of nationalism, Russia, China, America if Trump gets elected, still can't believe we are joining in. The EU arose after a previous cycle of nationalism ended in World War, even oh irony of ironies, given Boris's impersonation, Winston Churchill was pushing for integration beyond anything the EU has become or ever had any hope of becoming. The reason? Because it is made up of 27 countries all with very different cultures and politics but held together by a set of common values, such as democracy, liberalism that are embedded in those different cultures because Europe went through various common cycles of historical development, the renaissance, the enlightenment, as well as being the locus of two world wars. If those 27 countries can't achieve integration by consensus then how on earth do you even begin to integrate countries with an entirely different set of values eg Confucianism (don't confuse the current regime in China for Communism, they are inhabiting the role of Confucian emperors just as those in power in Singapore, South Korea etc. are doing so under the guise of democracy (but very much with Asian values.

Of course you may get world domination by a nationalist power but not whilst you have a number of geopolitical blocs holding the balance of power. A war maybe but never a world state... That is why China was urging us to stay in the EU, just as they are part of various regional and international bodies in spite of a nationalist agenda. It is a pragmatic solution to meeting the economic and political interests of the world and the major players. They are holding up the referendum as an example of how democracy is the enemy of good stable government. They think we are irrational idiots.......

Oh and winterbiscuit the joint circulations of the Sun and Daily Mail far outnumber the circulation of those papers and depending on your perspective the BBC was lilylivered in putting the remain arguments running scared from a Conservative Party intent on dismantling it they leaned over so far to be impartial that they ended up horizontal ..... Absolutely disgraceful Farage and Carswell got so much airtime as a tiny party with 1 MP

A man being interviewed on TV about the ( possible ) economic impact of leaving the EU actually replied: 'what do I care about economics, I'm a single man with a dog'

and leavers complain when their intellect/knowledge is challenged.

Actually Surferjet, as a Remainer I feel no hatred for the working classes and let's face it we know that class is not a reliable indicator for which way anyone voted. I actually feel sorry that many lower paid families will inevitably suffer as a result of Brexit, and I don't give a fuck whether that's viewed as patronising.

I do however feel utter contempt for the Leavers I have spoken to who are middle class, educated, utterly unaffected by most of the issues that they claim are caused by the EU, and who did zero actual research before voting. For example, my physics graduate sister, who cited David Cameron being self-serving as one of her main reasons for voting against Remain (conveniently ignoring Gove, BoJo and Farage), then a whole string of misinformed bollocks about democracy, TTIP and "red tape". When I challenged her with some actual facts, it turned out that she just thought "the whole system" (House of Lords, civil service, EU, everything) needed changing. So it was a protest vote? FFS, she is a SAHM and has enough time to chase lame memes around the web. Five minutes Googling to see if what she'd heard about "bureaucracy" was actually correct - five minutes thinking for herself - should have been possible.

I completely accept that some Leave voters had researched and thought about it and come to the conclusion that being out of the EU was better for us. I think they're utterly wrong but I respect their vote. But I would be very surprised if most voters did anything more strenuous to research than pick up one of the hate-filled, lying tabloids.

I am still very angry, so is my husband, it's not going away and no I don't feel more sympathetic to "the other side". I am finding it hard to relate to any of my (entirely Leave voting) family.

*Surferjet'White working class boys do not go on to university because successive governments have ignored them? OFSTED made the raising of outcomes for white working class boys a major focus of the Inspection regime and the measures taken in schools where the problem was particularly entrenched eg that served the notorious white ghetto, the Ravenscliffe estate in Bradford were shared across the country as best practise. Something akin to aiming to emulate the success of the London Challenge in proving that it was possible to raise standard for pupils in areas of black deprivation in London to the extent it now outperforms the rest of the country. The causes are complex and at least as much to do with culture and environment as the government and not solved overnight . But then Theresa May can no doubt start to trumpet the improved outcomes that will result from years of working hard under the radar as an example of how she restored fairness to the nation. Ignored by government? The Asian pupils studying alongside those white working class boys at Carlton School were arguably even more ignored and marginalised yet they far out perform them

www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm201415/cmselect/cmeduc/142/142.pdf

And just to give context to the issue of culture and environment when a group of reception children at the Primary School that serves the Ravenscliffe estate were asked to draw a tree, they all drew a stick, because all the trees planted on the estate get snapped off so that was all they knew. Half of the class suffered from petit mal epilepsy, a side effect of poor diet. Do you think that stopping the early start program, the increase in the need for food banks and all the other side effects of this governments policies are going to help because I don't see them doing a U turn.

And the EU were certainly NOT to blame, if anything EU money has reached the parts that this government have failed to

That farmers subsidy set to fall to £30/ac by 2020 would be minimal, most farmers voted out

Sorry that was supposed to reply to the woman quoting farm subsidies

I think farmers were more divided and unsure than 'most voted out' myself. It was a long raging debate (well, still is I guess!).

No, as time goes on and I have to put up with more and more smugness and gloating, or people mocking those of us who are really upset about the result, or people who repeated the leave campaign's abandoned promises over and over now saying that is doesn't matter that they were abandoned, or people saying that all remain voters were middle class rich bastards who voted entirely in their own selfish interests, or seeing the government we have ended up with, or reading economic forecasts and then when trying to discuss them with leave supporters being told that it can't possibly be true because everyone in the world is desperate to trade with us and I'm just being negative and a bad loser to be concerned about tariffs and passporting and so on, or people getting more upset about the fact that people see a link between the referendum and the sharp increase in racist incidents than they are about the incidents themselves, or people continuing to insist that of course we can have single market access and no free movement... none of that makes me feel any particular sympathy towards "the other side".

I feel some sympathy to people who believed lies and voted accordingly but not that much, because they were perfectly bloody capable of reading more than a tabloid headline or facebook meme.

I have no sympathy whatsoever with people who voted leave "as a protest".

I have some friends who voted leave. Most of them are still my friends- they looked seriously at things and came to a different conclusion from me, they haven't been gloaty smug twats since the result, etc. I'm aware not all leavers do everything or even anything I have mentioned above. But the prevalence of the above is making me feel worse and, despite my efforts not to, more hostile as time goes on.

and leavers complain when their intellect/knowledge is challenged

No, I've never complained about that. It's impossible to expect the entire 52% to be highly intelligent. But that's what worries me. The reaction from some remainers indicates that they'd like to see only a certain type of person get the vote. Maybe just men? - married women over 30? - property owners?
suffragettes must be turning in their graves.

whatwouldrondo I agree that it's disgraceful that Farage and Carswell got so much coverage, being from a party with only 1MP. I've posted about that before. I think unfortunately that the pro-EU media probably didn't want the more reasonable leave voices to be heard. They were very under-represented compared to UKIP. It suited the broadcasters to have extreme views representing leave, as many people would have found it offputting.

if anything EU money has reached the parts that this government have failed to

And where did the EU get the money from...?

A Wikipedia quote, well that makes it so, doesn't it? Did you by any chance write it.

No, I didn't write it. Which of the facts on there do you dispute?

Who said that only men should vote?

I once saw a student absolutely shot down in flames for quoting Wikipedia in a seminar, it lacks rigour and therefore credibility. Anybody can write a piece to their own agenda, filled with spurious facts, and they do. I have no doubt someone somewhere in history has come up with the idea, indeed many. I can think of ISIS for one. However it has never been a feature of the serious political developments in history has it? Not like Nationalism?

Surferjet I am beginning to think you are Leave.eu's star pupil. You have the art of throwing out completely specious allegations and assertions down to a fine art. And the tactic of throwing out completely barking stuff, in a manner that allows for 'plausible deniability'.

Nigel Farage would give you an A* for the implication that Remainers suggest only men should vote.

"I didn't say that. You inferred that!!! Wah wah!"

They need to get you on board for their next project. Which I am hoping will be some kind of pyramid scheme to fund an mining project, based on the moon, and then selling the resulting green cheese to earthlings. Or perhaps a unicorn breeding farm in Belize.

mupperoon Nobody that I have seen, after 100 years the concept of one person, one vote seems pretty embedded in our value systemI think Surferjet may have got mixed up with the argument that this should never have been the subject of a referendum because of the complexity of the issue. We have general elections to enable us to decide between the general approach to government laid out in manifestos. In so doing we delegate, or escalate the big decisions to our representatives who have the resources, researchers etc. enable them to debate the issues and reach consensus, that's our parliamentary system.

I think it is clear on here that no particular demographic group had a monopoly on voting on this without giving the actual issue, as opposed to a general feeling of pissed offness, due thought.

or reading economic forecasts and then when trying to discuss them with leave supporters being told that it can't possibly be true because everyone in the world is desperate to trade with us and I'm just being negative and a bad loser to be concerned about tariffs and passporting and so on

Hahaha, sadly so very true.

thecatfromjapan Do you get the feeling that some of the posters on here are not actually mums, or even parents? Not that it isn't inclusive, but I variously have a mental image of an old man sat at a lonely kitchen table with ketchup stains down his front and an adolescent madly trying to think up new arguments, leaping up from time to time shouting "And another thing" . Call it women's intuition and in no way a stereotyping of leave or remain voters but just not the sort of debate you normally get on eg the education or our local thread where everyone knows they have to produce robust evidence and back it. This is more of an AIBU....

after 100 years the concept of one person, one vote seems pretty embedded ....

'One person one vote', is nothing like a hundred years for 18-20 year olds, and only 88 years women under 30. The 1918 act enfranchised men over 21 and women over 30, with full enfranchisement of women on the same terms as men coming in 1928. Then in 1969 18-20 year olds were enfranchised, of which I was a beneficiary, as it happens.