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Brexit
Original poster

Does anyone else find themselves getting more sympathetic to the other side

429 replies

whydidhesaythat · 11/07/2016 20:59

I don't know if this is just another stage in the cycle of grief but I'm starting to feel that:

Those of us who were doing very nicely out of Europe thank you ignored those who didn't

EU money can go into buildings but that's not the same thing as helping people

People outside the urban centres felt the EU was just another siphon of power away from them

London patronises the regions

Not everyone got to go on a gap year to a European country so why should they be bothered about my kids having one?

There actually is a non racist anti immigration argument

I'm not saying any of this right, it may just be another reaction....but does anyone else find themselves empathising with the other side more than they did?

OP posts:
EverythingWillBeFine · 12/07/2016 20:54

Manon you know, we needed 'experts' like you during this referendum!

I'm sure the outcome would have been VERY different

EverythingWillBeFine · 12/07/2016 20:55

It does look bad doesn't it?

ManonLescaut · 12/07/2016 20:58

Do I get it right that the UK will still pay but will have no power in the EU until an agreement is found

If we leave EU membership we have no power in the EU full stop.

If we sign up to an EEA/EFTA deal we will pay our EEA grant and implement EU rules but we have no say in those rules or EU decisions.

ManonLescaut · 12/07/2016 21:00

I want to make it absolutely clear I am no expert of any kind!

UnderTheGreenwoodTree · 12/07/2016 21:00

I'm very scared, Everything.

Although, I think what will happen is we will get an EEA and keep free movement of people. Because we just can't afford to lose the single market - our economy will go down the toilet.

I don't know how the Leave voters who voted out because of immigration will take that news...

TheElementsSong · 12/07/2016 21:01

If we leave EU membership we have no power in the EU full stop.

But we'll be free. And able to breathe. Because the EU regulated our oxygen supply.

SwedishEdith · 12/07/2016 21:12

Manon you know, we needed 'experts' like you during this referendum!

No disrespect to Manon but plenty of people were explaining this stuff before the referendum. You can take a horse etc

EverythingWillBeFine · 12/07/2016 21:17

That's ok element.
I really really wish you are right. That the economy will be all great out of the EU and that being worried was completely unnecessary.
I mean who wouldn't be?

Maybe the uk will find its feet wo the EU and the EU will be able to do what some of its members really want and couldn't do with the U.K. In, eg a political Europe, common army etc etc.
And maybe that will be the best outcome possible.

Arm it's impossible to tell what will be the exact outcome, starting with the fact that it depends of the U.K. will be doing: out of the EU completely or still part of the free trade?
TM seems to be intent on staying within the free trade system and that will mean paying to the EU and having the free movement of people and complying with some the EU rules. And then we will really not have a say in it.
But maybe we will go all alone and will have to renegotiate all the trade deals with all the other countries, Canada, South Korea, China etc etc
But we will have a bit more money to play with. And we will be able to decide what to do...

EverythingWillBeFine · 12/07/2016 21:19

Does anyone know what is happening during the two years after triggering the article 50?
We will be out of the EU so no role in it, right?
But we will still have access to the free market and have the free movement of people?
And do we need to still pay as per usual until the end of the two years and the agreement being found?

SnowBells · 12/07/2016 21:28

No disrespect to Manon but plenty of people were explaining this stuff before the referendum. You can take a horse etc.

Yes, I heard ALL these arguments before, but I don't think Leave voters would have listened.

UnderTheGreenwoodTree · 12/07/2016 21:31

"Experts" were out, weren't they. We were all sick of them Hmm Thanks, Michael Gove.

dragonsarebest · 12/07/2016 21:36

Voters don't want facts, apparently.

caroldecker · 12/07/2016 22:11

For the 2 years after Article 50, we are still in the EU (longer if all agree to keep negotiating). We can reach other deals with other countries, but they will become effective only when we leave.
I am not sure why everyone is convinced the EU will happily cut off their own leg to ensure we lose both ours?
A negotiation can be win/win. We currently import around £430 billion from the EU each year and export £280 to them. This can be maintained, with visa free travel, just no automatic right to work. The EU governments do not want to destroy thier own economies.
The Swiss deal will happen before ours because the Swiss government legally has to stop free movement next year, so will be an interesting precedent.

SnowBells · 12/07/2016 22:18

Google post-factual politics. That's the stage we're in now... globally. Same thing that results in Trump's popularity...

MustStopAndThinkBeforePosting · 12/07/2016 23:51

We currently import around £430 billion from the EU each year and export £280 to them...The EU governments do not want to destroy thier own economies.

Sounds like it's quoted straight from a pre-referendum pro-Leave leaflet but see if you can engage your brain for a moment.

That £280billion we export to the EU is 44% of our exports. Of course it would cripple our economy if that got shut off. But pointing to the £430billion imports and saying they need us just as much if not more is ridiculously naïve. That is spread over 27 countries. Between the 27 of them, the total they are exporting to non-EU countries is 1.5 trillion, the total that they are exporting to each other (including the UK) is about 3 trillion (I've estimated that from a bar chart so that's approximate but won't be too far off) so that's a total of 4.5 trillion. The loss of our 430 billion will be less than 10% - enough for a shock to the system but it is not going to destroy any other non-UK economy.

caroldecker · 14/07/2016 00:36

Muststop You must stop thinking of the negotiation as a 'who gets most damaged' and more as a 'how do we best work together'.
What does the EU lose by denying us access to the free market compared to what do they lose by preventing free working into UK? Surely allowing free market access but not people is best for them?

crossroads3 · 14/07/2016 02:53

Surely allowing free market access but not people is best for them?

People will be a pre-requisite for market access.

MustStopAndThinkBeforePosting · 14/07/2016 08:04

The whole EU project will fail if the UK is allowed to keep all the benefits without meeting any of the conditions. They would be stupid to consider it as there would no longer be any incentive for any other member-state to meet any of the conditions.

Within the EU there is free movement of goods and capital. Free movement of people is a subset of this because labour is a "good" with a value that companies wish to pay for. This free movement increases the economic activity and wealth of all participating countries. To ensure a level playing field, all the member states agree to a single set of rules and standards and minimum levels of workers rights and environmental responsibility* so that the different member states don't win their competition with each other with a race to the bottom. The shared rules are an intrinsic part of the free trade.

Of course the post-Brexit UK will eventually be able to negotiate some kind of trade deal with the EU but it won't be full free trade unless we also sign up to rules too. We have no leverage to be allowed to be a special exception.

MustStopAndThinkBeforePosting · 14/07/2016 08:05
  • yes these rules are formulated by professional civil servants with qualifications and expertise in their specific area of specialisation who have the time to understand the impact of the rules throughout, instead of being thought up by someone who has no such qualifications etc and may be not that bright or experienced but got elected. The elected representatives then get to consider and either approve or reject the recommendations of the professionals. Some people think this is undemocratic - I think it is common sense.
SnowBells · 14/07/2016 08:16

Great post, MustStop*.

larrygrylls · 14/07/2016 08:17

Many believe the EU will fail anyway (many of them 'experts' too).

The idea that the EU is a safe status quo is flawed. If it does break up, I suspect we are much better off by exiting early in an orderly fashion,

SnowBells · 14/07/2016 08:21

larrygrylls

The EU actually has better survival chances with Britain outside it, so as a Remainer, I think that in the end, the U.K. Might have done the right thing for the EU. Not necessarily for us though.

Surferjet · 14/07/2016 08:24

I agree larrygrylls, & now we're out, the other EU members will have to find even more money to bail out failures like Greece. They'll soon get fed up with that.

Surferjet · 14/07/2016 08:27

But nothing 'leavers' say changes anything.

'Remain' has now become a religion.

SnowBells · 14/07/2016 08:27

Surferjet

Do you really think that is so difficult for a region that provides billions upon billions in quantitative easing? Don't think so: