Does anyone else find themselves getting more sympathetic to the other side

[whydidhesaythat]

I don't know if this is just another stage in the cycle of grief but I'm starting to feel that:

Those of us who were doing very nicely out of Europe thank you ignored those who didn't

EU money can go into buildings but that's not the same thing as helping people

People outside the urban centres felt the EU was just another siphon of power away from them

London patronises the regions

Not everyone got to go on a gap year to a European country so why should they be bothered about my kids having one?

There actually is a non racist anti immigration argument

I'm not saying any of this right, it may just be another reaction....but does anyone else find themselves empathising with the other side more than they did?

Carol I know a lot about China and Asia, I may even be a bit of a reverse banana (it is a common term of derision of western Chinese to say they are bananas - yellow on the outside, white on the inside and yes that is racist but then racism is actually endemic in Chinese culture, and they definitely will not be bent bananas either ) That means I don't entertain romantic illusions that China India and Africa are just desperate to trade with us. I know that for Asia certainly with all it's powerful regional alliances that provide a context for their phenomenal economic growth Brexit was an insane decision to sink ourselves firstly and our neighbours second economically and threaten the position of Europe in the world. It is an opportunity for sure but one to exploit to make absolutely sure of their ambition, that the next century is the Asia century. I have not seen a positive word in the Asian press about what we have done, but we have reinforced lots of damaging stereotypes about the arrogance and illusions of superiority of a colonial power who is still resented. The world is a much more complicated place in the 21st century we are just as likely to be competing with India and China as trading with them. For them it made perfect sense that Europe was a geopolitical economic bloc of countries with the same cultural and political values. Easy to dismiss that by using the racism word but for sure the colour of people's skin is not the issue here. The EU is out in the world both trading and providing a counterpoint to China's influence in developing countries across the globe, from Asia to Africa to South America.

Will we be doing that as a small lone island with Boris "piccaninnies" Johnson in charge? Are we, with a basically fucked (long ago by Maggie not the EU) manufacturing industry sector (in deficit) and a to be fucked financial services sector (only sector in surplus but only as long as we have the EU passport) and eminence in STEM research, even in a fit state to do that. All we have to offer by way of competitive advantage is a few gas turbines and some high tech stuff (look at the trade figures) and China is busy getting up to speed on that.......

To be honest I think you may be the intrinsically racist one in so underestimating the power of Asia in particular, but also Africa and South America in the global economic and geopolitical structures. They can and will turn their backs on us if we don't have anything to offer so we had better come up with a plan, and something better than Davies dosd on the back of a fag packet for Conservative Home. Obviously if it is up to the Brexiteers we are sunk because they are as deluded as you are but maybe just maybe all the Sir Humphreys in the Civil Service can guide the lunatics who have taken over the asylum to some sort of fudge that does the least damage...... One of the few cheering images recently was the Undersecretary at the Foriegn Office looking fully in command leading a blatantly petrified Boris into the building.......

Well I'm struggling to see anything racist in underthegreenwoodtree comment.
Why would it be racist to not want to 'join in' with China or some countries in Africa (If I remember well, China has an appauling human rights record. And some countries in Africa aren't much better)? Getting a specific agreement with them would make me very uneasy (I mean more than just basic business stuff such as taxes entering the country because that's what the EU is about so I assume that's what carol is talking about when she mentions 'joining in')

Even when you talk aboout trade agreements, It took more than 10 years to arrive to agreement between China and Europe. How long do you think it will take the UK to do so on its own, when it has a much smaller economic power than the EU has as a whole? Do you think trading with the UK, only 60 millions consumers after all, will be an attractive idea to China, compare to the EU (508 millions) or the US (318 millions)?
The UK will be in a much weaker position which means probably even more time to negotiate a deal that will good for us. In the mean time, what are e going to do?

I am very aware that we actually don't know how good or bad the situation will be out of the EU. What I am really pissed off about is Leavers thinking it's OK to minimise all the problems the UK will have being completely OUT of the EU. It will NOT be an easy path.
The issues rehashing the entire legal system of the U.K., redoing all the trades agreements etc... Is massive. To be able to entangle itself from the EU on a legal pov will take years and years. To be able to get new trade agreements will take decades. What will happen to the UK in the mean time when it will have lost part of his biggest export market?
I don't want to hear 'it will onlly be a small blip' as if it was like the last economic crisis (and even though a lot of people will say the last economic crash was NOT that easy on people and businesses!).
Because when you do so, you can't put anything in place to try and make the transition easier. The only way to make things easier on people (that is YOU and ME) is by being very aware of all the difficulties about it. Minimising and tutting your head in the sand or saying 'in the long run, it will be better' will not help the life's of people who WILL be affected.

Unless of course you consider the troubles people will be getting (such as needing to use the food banks even more) as just 'collateral damages' that don't really matter. :(:(

Someone up thread mentioned that having left the EU we would no longer have to bail out Greece.
We are currently protected as is Denmark and other non Eurozone countries, from having to do this. So not relevant to the argument.

the Leave peeps, like Farage, like the BNP

They were nothing to do with the official leave campaign. UKIP has only 1 MP, and it isn't Farage. Most people on the leave side are definitely not racist or extremist, we'd just prefer not to be in political union with the EU.

I'm not sure what you mean cat about the EU being a "buffer" to globalisation. The EU is part of globalisation as its aim from the start, with its CIA funding and associations, has always been to move further towards being a superstate. Once the world consists of a handful of superstates these could merge to become a potentially totalitarian world government. I think it's preferable to have a variety of different countries in the world.

Farage may not have been anything to do with the Official Leave campaign, but how many people realised this? It was useful for Farage himself, because he could immediately disassociate himself from the £350 million for the NHS statement.

Winter it functioned to buffer many people in the UK from being at the sharp end of globalisation. Which may not be a position of ethical purity bu, frankly, is probably more comfortable than being on the receiving end.

Winter it functioned to buffer many people in the UK from being at the sharp end of globalisation. Which may not be a position of ethical purity bu, frankly, is probably more comfortable than being on the receiving end.

Frankly, though, I tend to doubt dystopian narratives of watertight, totalitarian hegemonies. For a start, they tend to leave out black swan events, such as a state acting against its rational economic interests and setting up a referendum to leave a financial bloc that was benefitting it and following that through.

Once the world consists of a handful of superstates these could merge to become a potentially totalitarian world government.

That sounds like something someone would post on youtube, followed by "Illuminati Confirmed".

No, sadly I'm feeling less sympathetic as the weeks go on tbh.
The sheer hatred some remainers are showing towards leavers is doing more damage than leaving the EU ever will.
I know contempt for the working classes was already there, but bloody hell, even I'm
shocked at what I've read since the vote.

Well it provided a laugh at least in amongst all the gloom. I also saw a post from a leave voter that had voted leave because they believed the EU was following an anti-Russian agenda with Putin cast as the innocent victim, that was a good one too.....

Ah surferjet back to trying to create a stereotype? The vast majority of those who voted remain are as much frustrated by the fact the vote has led to a more right wing government who will have even less qualms about allowing the burden of an even deeper austerity fall on those already disadvantaged by it. Don't be deceived by Theresa Mays inclusive rhetoric, only inclusive if you are able bodied, working and have enough money to ride this storm.

Farage may not have been anything to do with the Official Leave campaign, but how many people realised this?

I read an interview with Gisela Start yesterday here saying the Remain campaign had £9 million versus the £7 million of the official Leave campaign - disingenuous or what? Whether they find it palatable or not, the official Leave side was, undoubtedly, (more?) successful because of Farage and Arron Banks' bank rolling.

Start = Stuart

The sheer hatred some remainers are showing towards leavers is doing more damage than leaving the EU ever will.

I doubt it.

Firstly: '[S]heer hatred some remainers are showing towards leavers': I think you are mistaking a continual repetition of facts with 'sheer hatred'. As far as I know, no Leavers have, as yet, been subjected to real, actual discrimination or violence on account of their views. On the other hand, racism/racist incidents have been demonstrated to be on the rise.
Your concern, your attention, might be said to be misplaced.

Secondly: Although emotions can be exhausting to demonstrate and may be pleasant/unpleasant to witness, I would suggest that it is extraordinarily unlikely that 'the sheer hatred some remainers are showing towards leavers' will have much of an economic impact, nor does it risk the constitution of the UK - which things are, possible and plausible, real effects of leaving the EU.
If you were four years old, I would find it adorable that you think emotions can have such real-world effects. I'd sit with you and talk about the ways in which emotions can have effects and the ways in which they can't ("Darling, I know you want to tidy your room but just really liking a tidy room isn't going to put your toys away. Let's do it together!"). Alas, in an adult, this sort of belief is less cute and is, perhaps, a little disturbing.

I know contempt for the working classes was already there, but bloody hell, even I'm shocked at what I've read since the vote.

Where do you see this contempt for the working class?
Are you sure that you are not ennobling some of the wearied responses you get to your own oddly-assembled little posts - and consequently your own peculiar, mis-figured little crusade - into some grand attack on the working class?

I suspect you are. Next you'll start wimbling about 'the elites' (who the fuck are the elites, anyway? Anybody who makes you feel bad? People who have administrative jobs who you haven't met? The lizard Illuminati? What a conveniently vacuous term,) and their attack on 'the little people.

I'm five foot. I don't earn a lot. I'm one of 'the little people'. But I am posting a wearied response to your odd little post. Perhaps I'm an elite? Perhaps I'm a little guy elite?

I read an interview with Gisela Start yesterday here saying the Remain campaign had £9 million versus the £7 million of the official Leave campaign - disingenuous or what? Whether they find it palatable or not, the official Leave side was, undoubtedly, (more?) successful because of Farage and Arron Banks' bank rolling.

This bears repeating.

I never want to hear the crap about Leave being a vote against 'the elites' again. It was a vote bank-rolled by a very monied elite.

TheCat,

The facts:

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-3626766

'The official campaign for Britain to stay in the EU - Britain Stronger in Europe - raised £6.9m - more than twice as much as Vote Leave's £2.8m.

But the sum raised by all registered leave campaigners was £8.2m - higher than the remain campaigners' £7.5m.'

'The government was criticised by Leave campaigners for spending more than £9m on sending leaflets to all UK households backing EU membership, which happened before the spending limits came into force. '

The page has gone. Perhaps it was a pack of lies, like much of the Leave campaign.

Gisela Stuart has some points, “It tells you the entire commentariat, including this place [Parliament], were utterly out of touch with what was going on out there." Yes, true. But why was that the fault of the EU and not the current Tory administration, or the shambolic opposition?

“It’s the same now when you go into the [Commons] Chamber. There’s still utter denial that anything’s happened out there.” Not sure how she works that one out, since TM has just appointed a completely different Government, and cleared out Osborne, Gove, Morgan and Villiers, and been hugely criticised for bringing in BoJo.

"The success of the Leave campaign reflected the failure of the political establishment to respond to the fears of voters, she said." Yes, but as we have begun to see, much of this was how both the current administration and the Blairites before them, chose to implement policies, e.g. Blair completely misjudged how many Poles would want to come to Britain. Zero hours contracts aren't as a result of the EU, but as a result of the moneyed Bullingdon set wanting to suck up to their friends.

Why Gisela, didn't you press your Leave chums for some firm committments as to what they actually wanted, since BoJo and Gove both wanted different things?

No UnderTheGreenwoodTree that isn't where I'm coming from. There are many mainstream discussions to be had about where globalisation is, or could be, heading.

For example the phenomenon of cultural imperialism has been questioned, with its potential to morph diverse cultures around the world into a Western-style consumer culture.

The concept of a world government has existed throughout history (see link).

In the event that we did end up with a world government, there's no guarantee there would always be positive and decent leadership. Indeed with no opposition, and knowing what humans can be like in competing for power, I'm not convinced its a good idea.

I like the fact that there are almost 200 different countries in the world, not just a few or even just one.

Let's not forget the advantage given by having the Daily Mail and Sun peddling the lies and spin to a much larger audience than all the other media outlets put together. There was a high correlation between the demographics of the leave vote and their readership. You could almost cross reference the demographics of the vote and as greenwood tree highlighted some of the rhetoric I was getting from leave voters was lifted straight from the Daily Mail, extrapolating for instance the experience of a few Lincolnshire towns who should be getting more resources to cope with the influx of EU workers into EU migrants are preventing us from getting appointments at the doctors and school places. Not here they aren't, that is entirely down to government policy......

thecatfromjapan

Thank you for your reply.
The thing is, economics wasn't really at the forefront of people's minds when they voted leave, the reason most people voted leave was because of uncontrolled immigration & a feeling of 'it can't get any worse' - so actually, emotions were very much in play.
A man being interviewed on TV about the ( possible ) economic impact of leaving the EU actually replied: 'what do I care about economics, I'm a single man with a dog' - people wanted something different - something better.
And wrt to working classes. Yes, they do feel forgotten, passed over, ignored, because in many cases they are, why do you think labour lost so much support to UKIP? why was that? you must have some idea. I know for a fact that white working class boys are the least likely to go on to university - why is that? maybe because successive governments have totally ignored them. The Labour Party, under Blair, became a party of rich people telling poor people that the other rich people didn't care about them, when in fact, they didn't much care about them either, & you can only get away with that for so long, hence the defection to UKIP.

UKIP were on the rise & getting stronger & stronger, Cameron had no choice but to call an referendum - if it hadn't have been him it would have been someone else, UKIP was never going to back down. ( emotions you see )
Hopefully, the country will unite under Theresa May, I have great confidence in her & feel if anyone can pull this off, she can.

Cameron had no choice but to call an referendum
I am quite sure that a more astute politician could have fudged it for a little longer, not a man who thought he'd be good at being PM.