Implications of not invoking Article 50

[CuppaTeaAndAJammieDodger]

So there is plenty of talk about whether or not Article 50 will actually be triggered.

Let's say that it's not, what do you think the implications will be? Will the whole sorry mess just get swept under the carpet? Will we be forevermore looked upon as the laughing stock of the EU? Will it's initiate a conversation and possibly action to shake up British politics for the better or worse?

Would like to hear anyone's thoughts.

This line of argument rather ignores the fact that the Leave campaign said everyone WOULD be better off financially.

I don't. They are majority voting out areas - 60%, 57%, but still, at least, they made a positive choice not based on economic interests of Nissan, Rolls Royce, Bombardier, Jaguar Land Rover, BMW but something much superior.

Meanwhile, a Romanian shop fire bombed in Norwich and a polish family home attacked but hey...a lot of people are feeling better off.

Helmet your tone is aggressive. Your approach is not constructive. We are where we are. I would like to understand what everybody wanted out of this and figure out whether there is anyway to go forward achieving at least something.

They are majority voting out areas - 60%, 57%

Yes they voted leave. At least 2 areas by less than those percentages however.

Those attacks are horrendous of course they are. Are you saying that it is the fault of people that voted leave because that is the way it is coming accross.

It is posts like yours that do put people's backs up and come accross as 'I know better than you do'.

It may not be what you have meant however if I am seeing that as a remain voter then I imagine that many leave voters would to.

Memo to self - Must not be arrogant. Must be constructive.

I have the percentages in those areas as leave victories by 61%, 57% and 56%.

Yes, I do think the rise of racist attacks is to do with the majority leave vote. I wouldn't blame individual voters because clearly neither economics ('money isn't everything') nor social cohesion was on their minds on voting day, but by following a movement led by that twat Nigel Farage, they have opened the door to this, and unfortunately, because of them, this is where we are.

but by following a movement led by that twat Nigel Farage

Who wasn't the official campaign. Leave voters I know can't stand him.

they have opened the door to this, and unfortunately, because of them, this is where we are.

So you are blaming leave voters then.

I repeat that in at least one of those areas there is little manufacturing left.

I explicitly blame the leave campaign for it. In the general election they were all very much oh never mind little Nigel over there - in this they let him run rampant talking in their name with hardly a nudge towards his unofficial status. They got into bed with him and it's us who are paying the price.

"Brexit refuses to ring fence that money or even accept that those areas are in need of help"

Who exactly is "Brexit"? Personally I'm a left-wing Brexiteer and know that these areas are in need of help. I'd like to see Labour in better shape, preferable supporting the "leave" side, but certainly leaving behind the Blair/New Labour legacy of forgetting about the north.

"in this they let him run rampant talking in their name with hardly a nudge towards his unofficial status"

It's the media who kept giving Farage too much airtime, not the Brexiters, many of whom consistently said he doesn't speak for us. Much of the media is pro-remain and it was in their interests to try to give the false impression that Farage was chief of Brexit, so that the leave side could be seen negatively.

I know Farage wasn't the official leave campaign. However, he led the movement to get UK out of Europe. (Many leave voters think he's great.)

Which area are you referring to? I know there isn't much manufacturing left, but we can be sure there will be even less in five years time if we exit.

I dont blame any individual voters - I just said that -, but if you insist I chose - yeah, I would blame leave voters more than remain voters.

This line of argument rather ignores the fact that the Leave campaign said everyone WOULD be better off financially.

Until we actually leave, in 2 or more years time, we won't yet know.

None of the actual leave campaigners tried to shush him or play him down though. He got media coverage during the general election along with publicly being played down by the party leaders. Which is why I blame the campaigners, not the voters.

Colour me fainting confused as to why it is so "unconstructive" and "aggressive" to associate the Leave campaign and by extension a minority of its voters with the increase in racist attacks.

There was a big scary poster with queues of immigrants, was there not? There was plenty of uplifting talk about Taking Back Control... Of Our Borders? Of course I have come to understand, here on the EURef topic, that the entire Leave (and parallel but in no way associated Farage one) marketing campaign is in fact the least successful campaign in history - apparently not a single voter noticed a single thing about it at all .

However. Assuming we are now agreed that there has been a teeny weeny little uptick in racist incidents (we're not claiming they're all made up anymore, I hope?) - on balance, why wouldn't these be associated more with the general sentiments of Leavers? Unless someone can come up with a plausible reason why people who favour our Remaining in the EU would be harassing "Polish vermin" to get out of the country?

You said many leave voters would rather be poor and free than wealthy and in the EU and People can decide for themselves if they feel they're better or worse off.

But at the same time, you know that these areas are in need of help?

So you feel the country will actually rush to rally round those communities which have decided they would rather be poor and free (but er feel much 'better off') than wealthy and in the EU?

That's...optimistic.

Matthew Parrish in the Spectator (not someone I ever imagined myself agreeing with) has some interesting things to say about taking responsibility for the rise in overtly xenophobic sentiment:

www.spectator.co.uk/2016/07/for-the-first-time-in-my-life-i-feel-ashamed-to-be-british/

I would like to understand what everybody wanted out of this and figure out whether there is anyway to go forward achieving at least something

Unless you are TM, or heaven forbid, AL, how exactly does you figuring out a way forward help anyone?

Yes- we are were we are, but given no one knows exactly where that is you can't blame people for feeling pissed off at the situation.

Here's what EU prosperity actually looks like:

EU Prosperity? A Greek Family of 5 Living In Carton Boxes [Video]

EU wealth is for the favoured few. The grants to poorer areas are of course just a refund of part of the money we sent to the EU in the first place. If we cut out the (EU) middle man, we will be better able to allocate UK taxpayers' money as our own government sees fit. Years ago I'd have said Labour were best-placed to do this, but they've moved to the right too much IMO and a "one nation" Tory such as Theresa May could do it just as well.

You really think taxpayers ought to support those communities that voted out their own (EU heavily subsidized) industries because those communities decided they would rather be poor and free?

Why would I be interested in doing that?

Sorry A4 but if you think TM or AL is going to be either willing or able to divert that kind of money to those areas that are losing EU funding you are fooling yourself.

Wow Helmet can you really not see how you are coming accross.

Elements I think you're right, the campaigns on the leave side weren't done as well as they could have been, and in some instances were very offputting. I wonder if this may have even reduced the number of people who would otherwise have voted "leave".

Meh, I had believed the line that people had been mislead by the leave campaign.

A4 and magrethe have made it clear to me that no, people weren't fooled, they deliberately voted out as they decided money is not everything and it's better to be poor and free than in the eu.
A vote for unemployment then.
Nice.

Helmet, that's right, sitting in the south east, married to a banker, and having voted remain myself. I do think people who voted Leave, voted as they wished to vote.

A4Doc - Who exactly is "Brexit"? Personally I'm a left-wing Brexiteer and know that these areas are in need of help. I'd like to see Labour in better shape, preferable supporting the "leave" side, but certainly leaving behind the Blair/New Labour legacy of forgetting about the north.

Brexit to me is the philosophical UKIP and Tory Leave camp, who are the spiritual leaders of the movement, Labour are very poor cousins.

They who wish to cut red tape like employment, environmental and social benefits. Ones that saw us getting an exemption from the working time directive as a win for the UK and sticking it to the EU.

People blame the EU but if the government, MEPS especially ineffectual UKIP members were interfering and or blocking with some of the good practice laws then thats something else. EU has many members, why is it our inequality is markedly so different from the rest if we are following the same 'rules'?

We have had many years of conservatism which has blighted the country with the obsession with benefits, that you can have low taxes with good services, scroungers vs grafters etc while tax evasion and avoidance £120 billion estimates (i.e the costs of the NHS) completely off the radar.

I would love Labour to come good, like you I dislike the Blair years, which were nothing more than diet conservatism e.g PFI etc. Though any other party tbh as we need good opposition, but they (labour) are a mess at the moment. Part of me almost wanted them to grant the opposition to SNP to get labour to wake up and sort themselves out.

In the upcoming election I believe there is a very high chance of a UKIP tory coalition.

I don't think there will be a coalition. I think the Torries will maintain a majority.