Boris outmaneovered. Et tu Gove & Corbyn? The Westministenders Hunger Games Continues

[RedToothBrush]

Following the Machiavellian Govian shambles? Utterly gobsmacked at the Labour clusterfuck?

Who will strike next?

Who will the shadowy hand of Osborne back?
Can Gove be launched back into space and back to the planet he came from?
Can May save the country from almost certain doom?
Will Leadsom patronise us all to death (whilst silently stabbing people in the back with a sweet smile)?
Can Johnson make a decision he can stick to, and can we persuade him to give up being a politician?
Will Steven Crabb get rid of that god awful beard?

Will Corbyn shoot himself in the other foot?
Will Angela Eagle get a spine and just stand?
Who the fuck is Owen Smith?
Will the Blairites be foiled and damned?
Are momentum a bunch of thugs or a force for a better, for the people?

Will Farage disappear back under his rock?
Will people wake up to Arron Banks?
What will Dominic Cummings destroy next?

Have we seen a coup d'état?
How do we improve democracy and representation?

All these questions and more.
Sense of humour compulsory. No experience necessary though

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/eu_referendum_2016_/2670552-Has-Boris-been-outmanoeuvred?pg=1 Previous thread 1

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/eu_referendum_2016_/2672388-Has-Boris-been-outmanoevered-Will-someone-please-tell-me-who-is-in-charge Previous thread 2

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/eu_referendum_2016_/a2673982-Have-Boris-and-Jeremy-been-stabbed-in-the-back-Please-can-we-have-some-leaders Previous thread 3

I think that article shows two things interesting:

"Since the June 23 vote both the Czech and Polish foreign ministers have called publicly for Mr Juncker to resign – moves that one senior EU official dismissed last week as “predictable”. However, the rumblings from Berlin now represent a much more serious threat to Mr Juncker’s tenure."
Interesting that some members state opinions are actively dismissed, whereas Germany's opinions are considered a threat. Clearly there is already a serious divide going on.

and

"Prior to the Brexit vote senior European Commission officials were privately jubilant about the opportunity that a British ‘leave’ vote would present to complete the European project, sucking reluctant countries like Poland into the Euro “within five years”.
I've mentioned previously that their goal is to get everyone in Europe into the Euro, and if we stayed, I fully expect that would be something they would again put pressure on.

"But I don't really see the problem with a two-speed EU that would have a deeply-integrated core and some more loosely associated members that get to be in the Single Market while staying fully sovereign, isn't that the best of both worlds?"

The EU is currently a union of 28 states who nominally have an equal voice. A two-speed EU would result in one megastate that operates as a single, unified entity and a dozen or so smaller non-integrated states each pursuing their own individual interests. The fear for the non-integrated states is that everything would become dominated by the megastate.

Two-speed Europe is an attempt to force countries who joined the EU into a peripheral position they don't want.

What I don't quite get is where exactly the downside for them is, practically speaking? You can say "peripheral" but you can also say "loosely associated", which sounds much better!

You could also see it the other way round, and say that one-speed slow Europe is an imposition on the countries that do want more integration. No one can get 100% of what they want, so the 2-speed option seems like a compromise to me.

(thanks NotDavidTennant)

I would say the problem would arise when making decisions that may be beneficial to the "superstate" and detrimental to the "peripheral." It smacks ever so slightly of "second class citizens." It appears things may already be leaning that way - in the quote I put above, some of the members' concerns were dismissed, but when Germany voices the same concerns, then it's listened to. I wouldn't be happy with that arrangement.

Yes, that makes sense GingerIvy, thanks.

The problem for me is that this doesn't allow the EU to solve any of its structural problems. It's staying stuck in a halfway house that doesn't make anyone happy.

You could also see it the other way round, and say that one-speed slow Europe is an imposition on the countries that do want more integration.

But you could also say that it is in accordance with the agreed functioning of the existing EU.

It is very much the case that the interests of the faster track countries would be privileged. That is the intention.

Two-speed Europe is about apying pressure for more integration than some countries want.

the agreed functioning of the existing EU

but how about the commitment to ever-closer union?

I'm totally outing myself as a raging europhile here aren't I

*what about

also outing myself as a sleep-deprived non-native speaker

I would argue that a two-speed europe is a breach of the priciple of ever-closer union.

It seems that the countries in the EU need some time to adjust to the current level of integration.

And tweak the institutions accordingly.

Closer integration for a few at this juncture, co-opting EU institutions to deliver it, seems undemocratic to me.

"but how about the commitment to ever-closer union?"

The problem is that national sovereignty tends to be quite a big deal in the former Soviet bloc countries, for obvious reasons. "Ever closer union" to the point of being fully absorbed into a supra-national entity is not necessarily a popular idea.

Then there is the fact that ever closer union means joining the Euro. Do any of these countries want to risk becoming another Greece?

A two tiered EU only looks like some states have more power and more privilege while others have less say, but still will be required to follow the rules. I can't see that working well at all. United should mean all have an equal say.

I think this is where the EU falls apart. They have gone well past their original remit, and I think that has hurt them. As they try to bring more powers into their organisation, they start looking at taking over other countries through legislation and trade, rather than just working with other countries. They've overstepped their bounds and IMO appear to just be looking for more power and control. It makes me very uneasy.

Germany proposing dual citizenship will attract people to work there and to settle in.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36703037

I like this.
I like this A LOT.

(This should worry people in terms of a brain drain).

Well I'm more than happy to wait for them in that case, but in the meantime the EU still needs reforming. There's an inherent tension between sovereignty and supranational democracy, and I don't see how else it can be solved. All suggestions welcome.

I am in the process of applying for German Nationality for my DC by descent. It was started about 8 weeks ago and I'm not getting far as there is an issue over a paper needed to confirm my German nationality but we will hopefully get that sorted. DD already lives in another EU country and doesn't want to return to the UK after the result and DS looks to be a future scientist so am keeping options open for him. He does need to accept the fact that learning German would be a good idea at this point but the Upper School he is going to has just stopped offering it.

Is it me or is May getting quite a bashing over her weekend comments about EU nationals here in the UK?

She's getting a bashing.

Its not right or proper that she should use people as bargaining chips.

However, she's not really promising anything nor ruling out anything either - other than saying a50 will happen, which I think is more appealing than the March of the Unicorns or the Vision of Gove

It was a spectacularly stupid thing to say. Even if there's some basis to what she says.

I'm not really her biggest fan, but from a logical perspective - if she says they can stay, and she gets overruled somehow, she'll get torn to bits over it. If she says realistically that she wants them to stay, they tear her to bits because she's not promising. But how can she promise it? Is her word law on this? Or can she be overruled by Parliament or something?

She can't answer obviously for those Brits that are in Europe, as she doesn't have control over that.

Precisely. Only a fool would predict what's going to happen over the next few years and it would be sensible to give no firm promises and also to avoid spreading fear when it might be baseless.

LOL

What a smart move by the Germans!

Theresa May using EU citizens as bargaining chips while the Germans drain our brains out from under us.

All your workers are belong to us.

"Thinking of moving your business to the EU? No visa problems for you!"

She's the Home Secretary.

She is absolutely in a position to make promises about people from the EU living and working here now.

Do you think she will be Home Secretary in a year's time DoinItFine?