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Brexit

Boris outmaneovered. Et tu Gove & Corbyn? The Westministenders Hunger Games Continues

941 replies

RedToothBrush · 01/07/2016 12:08

Following the Machiavellian Govian shambles? Utterly gobsmacked at the Labour clusterfuck?

Who will strike next?

Who will the shadowy hand of Osborne back?
Can Gove be launched back into space and back to the planet he came from?
Can May save the country from almost certain doom?
Will Leadsom patronise us all to death (whilst silently stabbing people in the back with a sweet smile)?
Can Johnson make a decision he can stick to, and can we persuade him to give up being a politician?
Will Steven Crabb get rid of that god awful beard?

Will Corbyn shoot himself in the other foot?
Will Angela Eagle get a spine and just stand?
Who the fuck is Owen Smith?
Will the Blairites be foiled and damned?
Are momentum a bunch of thugs or a force for a better, for the people?

Will Farage disappear back under his rock?
Will people wake up to Arron Banks?
What will Dominic Cummings destroy next?

Have we seen a coup d'état?
How do we improve democracy and representation?

All these questions and more.
Sense of humour compulsory. No experience necessary though

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/eu_referendum_2016_/2670552-Has-Boris-been-outmanoeuvred?pg=1 Previous thread 1

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/eu_referendum_2016_/2672388-Has-Boris-been-outmanoevered-Will-someone-please-tell-me-who-is-in-charge Previous thread 2

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/eu_referendum_2016_/a2673982-Have-Boris-and-Jeremy-been-stabbed-in-the-back-Please-can-we-have-some-leaders Previous thread 3

OP posts:
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Fawful · 02/07/2016 09:25

I know, I know gingerIvy, Smile I'm reacting to what people parrot say a lot: we can't cope, the infrastructure can't cope, the NHS can't cope, 'breaking point' etc.

Hamishandthefoxes · 02/07/2016 09:27

That's interesting from Chomsky.

I think a lot of the anti-immigration thing is a last howl against the immigration from the Indian subcontinent and the Caribbean in the 1950s and 1960s. It's a 'my country isn't like it was when I was growing up and I don't like it'.

Whatever settlement is reached with the eu on migration there will still be non-eu migration which has been in the 100s of 1000s for the last few years and refugees.

If we can't sort out passporting for services and gdp drops by 50% we'll have a similar gdp per person as Greece or Portugal (according to wiki this morning). If it's more of a drop there won't be any benefit to people coming from Poland. The Gdp drop will itself deal with a lot of immigration.

Showmethewaytogohome · 02/07/2016 09:30

Gove and Boris anyone? Red where are you? I need some light -shenanigans

DoinItFine · 02/07/2016 09:32

A negotiation that ends with us in the EEA with freedom of movement unaffected would be a massively cynical betrayal of the referendum result.

If we are going to change nothing, and refuse to implement Brexit, then lets do it properly and maintain oyr influence.

If we are leaving, then let's leave.

There is no talk of changing our asylum policy, is there?

I support May's approach of taking refugees directly from the camos in Jordan and Lebanon.

I deplore the cynicism of allowing the richest and most useful migrants to risk their lives getting to Europe so they can be a benefit to the host economy while keaving the poorest and most vulnerable in semi-permanent refugee camos in the ME.

If I have to see one more FB post going "this boat is full of doctors and teachers. (Nice middle class people just like us. Let's welcome them in while the Syrian poor moulder away in one roon shacks in the desert)" I'm going to cry.

TheBathroomSink · 02/07/2016 09:33

are ukip having a leadership crisis too?

Probably, but it isn't the first time. They need carswell because he's their only mp, and he gives them a legitimacy they didn't have before, but the entire identity of the party is farage, and there's a lack of anyone credible to replace him. They'll probably just argue a bit, offend large swathes of people, and go back to quietly resenting each other in the name of staying relevant.

GoudyStout · 02/07/2016 09:34

In the prophetic words of Larry the No 10 Cat:

Gove will tear us apart. Again.

Fawful · 02/07/2016 09:39

V interesting hamish! That will sort everything out (apparently)! GrinI'll take my immigration issues to the proper thread, since that's the (v lovely and welcome) light-hearted one.

Showmethewaytogohome · 02/07/2016 09:48

Goudy Brilliant! Do you think these people sleep? I remember watching a programe about 9/11 and Bush went to bed at 10 o'clock in his bunker - and feel asleep!!!!

I thought WTAF!

DoinItFine · 02/07/2016 09:55

www.gove2016.co.uk/

GoudyStout · 02/07/2016 10:03

I'm a big fan of Larry. As a cat, I suspect he probably sleeps around 22 hours a day.

You can find him here. I'm not sure he's a Gove fan.

Palmerston the FO cat seems to his paw on the pulse of things too.

On another note, since it's been a week full of impossibilities, who's up for a Wales / Iceland final in the Euros?

Showmethewaytogohome · 02/07/2016 10:07

IDS has come out for Andrea - surely that's the kiss of death?

Re the final I could be torn if it was - really like the Icelandic accent (shallow shallow). But if Wales won it would great - stick it to the spoilt England team

Could Gareth Bale stand as leader of the labour party? Or Larry the cat could be good - would we notice the difference from Corbyn?

Izlet · 02/07/2016 10:10

Immigration has always been a hot potato in every GE since I can remember. I thing what swung it for the Leave vote was the refugee crisis and essentially Merkel's handling of it. I live in a frontline country (not Greece) and we have seen for years that the vast majority of people arriving from North Africa are not the dentists and brain surgeons oft touted, but relatively uneducated youths unlikely to get a job beyond labouring. Nor are they all fleeing from war, only a relatively small percentage. These people end up in the already depressed poor areas and put more strain on the scarce services. In the end they drive the locals out and increase petty crime/drugs (disclaimer, obviously not every single person but statistically as a group). All this causes resentment. I can imagine more so in the UK.
I think when DC promised the referendum the refugee crisis hadn't happened, nor had Cologne, so at that stage it was a calculated bet and the likelihood of a leave vote was relatively low. All that changed with the events of last summer and the new year. I can understand it as I too am concerned by unfettered MENA immigration, having lived in the region I know the culture and it does concern me for my daughter's future.

That said I would never have voted Leave, my family are multicultural and I love the concept of a United Europe, having lived and worked in 4 EU countries. However I can understand how the immigration ticket influenced the Leave vote heavily. Farage's poster just fed into everyone's fears. The thing is European immigration got intertwined with the refugee crisis and it was whipped up into a frenzy.

TempsPerdu · 02/07/2016 10:16

nauticant You've summed up exactly what I've been feeling. The yes/no nature of the referendum is so stark and final, as opposed to a GE where you can have another go in a few years' time. It's now set into motion a whole other set of trends and policies that haven't appeared in any manifesto and that no one (it seems) will have an opportunity to vote on - a national lurch to the right, tough new curbs on immigration - essentially a whole different world view. And with both main parties running scared and adopting these measures to shore up their own support, the 48% who voted Remain have effectively been disenfranchised. It's a snowball effect, basically.

Fawful · 02/07/2016 10:21

Yes, not fleeing wars, but probably trying to escape circumstances that anyone would try and escape too if they could.

NotDavidTennant · 02/07/2016 10:25

IDS backing Leadsom is a sign the that Brexiters are dropping Gove like a hot brick. I predict Gove's candidacy will be over by mid-week.

DoinItFine · 02/07/2016 10:30

but probably trying to escape circumstances that anyone would try and escape too if they could.

I think that applies to a lot of Brexit voters.

This "protest vote" was their attempt at escape.

We need to listen to the people in our country who feel like they have nothing to lose.

RedToothBrush · 02/07/2016 10:37

I don't understand why remain and the current MPs are accepting the result of this referendum.
They could say leave campaign incited racial hatred or used brain washing or anything they wanted to claim the vote wasn't fair and therefore needs to be redone.
As Austria just has done.

If only it were that simple. The problem is two fold.

Firstly there referendum unleashed a legitimacy in the eyes of many. You can't just go and say that people are brainwashed because they won't believe it! They know 'the truth' and to tell them they don't is to suggest they were 'stupid' for being brainwashed. They are not stupid though. Nor are they ignorant. They just not necessarily aware of it and I think its more appropriate to say that they were vulnerable to it - because of where they are in society - because they want to believe as it provides apparent answers to their problems and because it makes them feel empowered and it gives them hope of something better in the future. This is not just something you can 'take away', without violent protest.

Secondly, you need to consider who wanted Brexit and who pushed for it. It was the far right, the parts of the capitalist elite and the far left. Trouble is that this is the same capitalist elite that also have power. They can now exploit what's happened for their own benefit, discarding the agendas of the right and left as much as they can. I'm not sure that Arron Banks, will do that however, so I suspect we are on something of a collision course here. Meanwhile I think there's a bunch of us stuck in the middle rather open mouthed at it all going WTF is going on here? What the bloody hell happened?

You can't just put things back in the box. Things are different. Those things can be manipulated to suit various agendas and purposes though

There is an article in the Guardian today, that shines a bit of a light on parts of this:
www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/jul/01/brexit-britain-elites-run-amok

This thread has been wonderful in discussing the party leadership battles and how things are moving in government, but as we get on, we sometimes slide into danger of rehashing the referendum, which will drag this thread into the possibility of being like the hundred other threads on MN that just argue about whether or not the referendum was valid and should be redone. I hope that we can resist that temptation.

This thread is not about rehashing the referendum to me. Its about asking people to have a look around at ALL the political manipulation that's going on, and looking at how much accountability and democracy there actually is.

At the moment there is a certain expose of the inner workings of that - it is being displayed by various groups and parties. There is a chance, if only a brief one, to open a few eyes to it and we need to seize that as much as anyone else out there is going to exploit the situation. I'm far from a revolutionary type (I tend to see revolutionary forces as a destructive rather than constructive force even if that's what comes out of the ashes and favour evolutionary change) but I fear that if we sit as merely spectators to this circus, without having some input to the process now ongoing, we'll end up shat on one way or another.

For me its about 'the search for the truth' in all this. Not telling you what the truth is. Just getting people to start looking and asking questions as that's where accountability lies. Its how you go about having a counter weight to manipulation. Which we are all vulnerable to.

The reason it feel a bit dystopic nightmare at the moment, is precisely because its gone dystopic nightmare with huge parts of our political narrative that could be lifted straight out of George Orwell's 1984.

However we do not live under the control of Big Brother and Oceania (which is how the referendum leave campaign tried to frame it in many ways as something quite literal) and at the same time likes of Arron Banks are trying to manipulate by using the same methods that they are professing to be fighting against.

Indeed 1984, is a protest against political manipulation.

I have a copy of the book, and it has an introduction written by someone called Ben Pimlott, whoever he his. Its a comment on what 1984 was about. The final two paragraphs are as follows:
The novel can be seen as an account of the forces that endanger liberty and of the need to resist them. Most of these forces can be summed up in a single word: lies. The author offers a political choice - between the protection of truth, and a slide into expedient falsehood for the benefit of rulers and the exploitation of the ruled, in whom genuine feeling and ultimate hope reside.
Thus the novel is above all subversive, a protest against the tricks played by governments. It is a volley against the authoritarian in every personality, a polemic against orthodoxy, an anarchistic blast against every unquestioning conformist. 'It is intolerable to us,' says the evil O'Brien 'that an erroneous thought should exist anywhere in the world, however secret and powerless it may be'. Nineteen Eighty-Four is a great novel and a great tract because of the clarity of its call, and it will endure because its message is a permanent one: erroneous thought is the stuff of freedom.

Personally, I struggle with Nineteen Eighty-Four I find it somewhat difficult and hard to access. It makes me go cross eyed reading it. (To a degree that's the entire point though). I think its messages need to be listened to right now though.

We do not have a healthy political system. It is rotten to the core. No party is exempt from that. Orwell's criticisms can be applied all over the place right now. Its not balanced. It does not properly represent so many voices in the way that it should do.

We need to start taking note of this, and fast, because this dystopian nightmare will worsen unless we do so and wake up to the tug of war going on between various forces and how they are all trying to frame the new order of things in the UK.

Think of it like this: the 23rd June threw all the political jigsaw pieces up in the air. Right now we are all scrabbling around trying to pick up those pieces. How quickly you can grab those bits and put them all together will shape our future - we should not leave it in the hands of the political establishment who currently appear to have lost the plot - nor should we hand that future straight over to someone like Arron Banks who is perhaps also having a shot at grabbing that power from the political establishment.

I just think, we need a bit of a rallying call for 'the truth'*: which I'm sure is also going to include some painful home truths along the way about ourselves.

*'the truth' being a bit of a misnomer as there is no 'one truth'. There are many truths and the truth may differ for different people. Whilst you might think it is, a lie is not the opposite to the truth. A lie is a deliberate deception, often a distortion of the truth so it looks a lot like the truth. The subtly in this difference is important.

Sorry. I appear to have gone all serious and a bit too over intellectual. Its not my intent. This really needs to be as accessible to everyone as possible rather than being an 'idea for the educated' (as indeed that in fact plays into some of the narratives being written at the moment).

I'm just fucked off, trying to make sense of it all and tried to express it in a way that makes sense in my own head, never mind anyone else's, by ranting into a computer which possibly isn't the best way to do it!

This needs to start ringing and resonating with people if appeals to emotion are the order of the day. I'm not quite sure how to do that, though I think humour is possibly the best 'weapon of choice'. If only to stop me from going nuts and crying about it all.

I just hope someone 'gets' it can translate the message into a way that is more inclusive and universal.

(Ok, I'll shut up now).

OP posts:
Showmethewaytogohome · 02/07/2016 10:41

NotDavid That would be lovely. I know they are trying to talk to him to make him stand down

Maybe him and Boris can take their hols together -you never know some people think the whole thing was a staged set up and they are actually still holding hands in private (but would that just be too far fetched?)

howabout · 02/07/2016 10:43

In lieu of Red to lighten the mood and move the conversation on here is my tuppence worth. I am afraid to say thinking about macro economic policy is what lightens my day so here goes.

Someone asked me about Central Bank Bond operations and what my problem with Mark Carney was a while back. A glaring inaccuracy from the European accented woman on the Sky newspaper review last night is bothering me. She stated that when the BoE buys bonds from banks the banks use the cash generated to invest in equities. If this were true then the whole financial market would indeed be a pack of cards. The money is actually used to support the banks' individual and business lending functions in a situation where domestic economic actors and banks may be unduly cautious due to economic uncertainty which could create a self-fulfilling prophesy of consumer demand driven recession. QE is more of the same but the financial instruments used to inject the money are broader than bonds.

My issue with Carney is that I think he has provided too much monetary stimulation to try to compensate for GO's fiscal stance. This has created a housing market bubble especially since GO has also provided financial support to home buyers while not stimulating housebuilding and cutting access to social housing. Carney is Canadian. They do not have a housing bubble because they have done the complete opposite of the UK. In fact I think it remains the case that the UK is the only country which has re-inflated its housing bubble post the Global Financial Crisis.

JMD is actually extremely good at explaining all this in layman's terms. The bonus is you get to watch the twinkly blue eyes and the mischievous smile while he does it

(The oft doctored wiki oracle informs me GO and DC do not have an A level Maths between them, which I have no reason to doubt. Gove is Scottish educated so probably has a Higher Maths - but look what happens when he is in charge of education and elucidation).

I have now put Carney back in his box tied with knotty string and can go back to devoting my "academic" headspace to Yanis.

RedToothBrush · 02/07/2016 10:44

Gove and Boris anyone? Red where are you? I need some light -shenanigans

Sorry, head firmly up my arse writing that last post. Er where are we at?

Thinks of quick response before I read back the last page of posts and go and try and find something less serious

I'm definitely team Iceland I'm afraid. I came out as a national traitor, before the last match and England got next. It was a protest vote in my head. I didn't necessarily think they'd win, but I'd get a good result whatever that way.

I am now hoping for a Wales v Iceland final though (as if!).

Right time for breakfast and to find something to stop myself going nuts!

OP posts:
MaterofDragons · 02/07/2016 10:44

We have really exposed ourselves to a shower of shit. Largely as a result of lies, vaulting personal ambition and deliberate misinformation.

I would say this is what politics is all about but I'm so tired and fed up of the bs. I want every culpable motherfucker to pay.

Izlet · 02/07/2016 10:45

YY Doit, articulated far more succinctly than I could. That's the point I was trying to get across.

howabout · 02/07/2016 10:49

I am now very "curious" about the Iceland team. Looking forward to "joining in" watching the match with DH's French half.

Showmethewaytogohome · 02/07/2016 10:54

Red Great post.

I understand what you are saying - but the only solution is probably a difficult one - to beat them you have to join them. The other options lead to violence and unrest in the street (which I think will happen to some degree anyway)

So it is through influencing the current parties - well Labour or Lib really. Or creating our own movement or party and get the young involved.

Oddly I have a degree in Government - who would have thunked it that it would ever come in useful Smile

DoinItFine · 02/07/2016 10:58

Thanks, howabout. I think it was me asked you.

And not just as an excuse to talk about Big Carney the bomb disposal expert. 😋

My issue with Carney is that I think he has provided too much monetary stimulation to try to compensate for GO's fiscal stance.

What else could he have done?

Not a rhetorical question.

What should a central banker do with a weak economy that needs demand side stimulation and a chancellor ideologically committed to austerity?

He has been making noises about the limitations of monetary stimulus. But he has no say over fiscal matters.