Have Boris and Jeremy been stabbed in the back? Please can we have some leaders?

[RedToothBrush]

And another thread about antics of President Boris and Comrade Jeremy and all their friends.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/eu_referendum_2016_/2670552-Has-Boris-been-outmanoeuvred?pg=1 Previous thread 1

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/eu_referendum_2016_/2672388-Has-Boris-been-outmanoevered-Will-someone-please-tell-me-who-is-in-charge Previous thread 2

Can we laugh or cry yet?

Are you still sane?

Will this insanity ever end?

Marking my place again. I do think in my current position of PMT induced rage that is now sweeping over me that if we look forward to our Great Grandchilden sudying this , this fiasco will be tagged as 'the 350 million pound lie'.

If nothing is done they will be incredulous that Johnson, Gove and Farage could lie their arsed off then Farage turn round the very next day and say er well actually that wasn't right and have no repercussions.

I know no politicians want to actually deal with the fact they lied as it happens all the time in elections. But that is part of why we are here now, the group of people who have been let down time and time again by political parties across the board who make claims to get elected that they then can't stand by. We can't continue like this.

I think as an aside to every thing else that is happening we need a group of lawyers to get together and find something they can take Johnson and Gove to court to be held to account for their lies and Farage under hate crimes for his poster.

From a bit of a odd note:

Obama warns of Brexit consequences
Posted at
07:54
Barack Obama has warned of the consequences of the UK leaving the EU.

***
On a more positive note:

(BBC NEWS)

Freedom of movement will be "on the table" when the UK negotiates its withdrawal from the EU, French Finance Minister Michel Sapin says.
EU leaders have warned Britain that it would have to accept the free movement of EU citizens, if it still wanted to have access to the single market.
But Mr Sapin told the BBC's Newsnight that everything - including free movement - was up for discussion.
He added that the UK should now leave the EU "as quickly as possible".
But he said this was not to punish the UK, as he believed the country would "encounter real difficulties" and there was no need to "amplify" them.
Brexit: What happens now?
Reality Check: Have Leave campaigners changed their tune?
Cameron: UK will not shun Europe
Brexit models: Norway or Canada?
Mr Sapin said: "When we negotiate with a country, a third party - Norway, Switzerland, to take countries that are very close - we discuss all subjects.
"Under what conditions there is freedom of movement of people, freedom of movement of goods, freedom of movement of capital.
"That is something that is very important for the UK with all the questions about financial services, so we discuss everything."
Mr Sapin went on to say that "everything will be on the table" when it came to the UK negotiating its withdrawal from the European Union "because Britain will make proposals and will negotiate all these aspects with a desire to come to an agreement".
He added: "But we're not there yet, until we have an official decision from the UK. Britain won't be in the same position as it was beforehand. Things will change. Things have already changed.
"We start from zero, as we say in French - a clean slate."

Have to admit, the thought of women as both Tory and Labour leaders is intriguing. At least there's likely to be less "calm down dear" right? The thing is, with the way they behave, for example, at PMQs, with all the shouting and schoolboy behaviour - what would the women look like? What would their behaviour be? I suspect they would be judged quite differently than the men are. I've not seen NS act in that schoolboy manner, but perhaps she has and I've missed it?

Good point, Doctora.

Maybe we need to be asking questions about the type of education on offer at Eton.

This morning we find out that some Singapore bank has stopped lending to investors in London property: www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jun/30/brexit-prompts-major-singapore-bank-to-stop-lending-for-london-properties

Is this a good or bad thing? Any market experts know?

Foreign investors piling into London property has been bad for affordability, so maybe a collateral benefit??

Abrose Evans-Pritchard in the Telegraph last night interesting on Brexit panic, contagion to Euro: Brexit fear a giant hoax or is this the calm before the storm?

Doin Are they trying to contain the number of people perhaps taking advantage of the lowered value of the pound, which might have some financial effect somewhere? I'm sure someone with the appropriate market knowledge will be able to explain - I'll be interested to see what they say.

This was an interesting part of that article Doin. Thanks for linking that, it was a good read.

Yet it should be dawning on European politicians by now that the economic fates of the UK and the eurozone are entwined, that if we go over a cliff, so do they and just as hard, and therefore that their bargaining position is not as strong as they think. They cannot dictate terms.

Just done a quick recce around my Facebook , all the people who were literally foaming at the mouth and screeching OUT before the referendum , have gone very quiet on the subject , not one of them is asking when we are going to invoke article 50 , not one , and not one is mentioning politics or the current situation surrounding Westminster .

My DS joined the Labour to vote Corbyn in , he has done nothing else for the party in terms of helping at a local level , I doubt he could even name the person who stood in the last election for Labour in our area or even who our current MP is . He did all this based on what he saw online via social media . He 'hearts' him !

Chalala isn't that proposal what is actually already in place?

My understanding is this is exactely what the Treaty is about. You can stay 3 months in a country (after that you are considered a resident) and to be a resident in another EU country yoou should

• have a job
• look for a job
• a family member of a 'qaulified' person (ie someone with a job...)
• a student
• someone who has their own means to live in (eg pensioner)

Apart from the bit that you need to have found a job within (3?) months, I can't see the difference! Which basically mean it will do absolutely nothing to reduce 'immigration'.

today
YY THAT is actually the most worrying thing in all this.
And no one is mentioning anything about it either. We seem to be walking into it, completely oblivious of what is going on.

Eton or not, some people have forgotten to go to their History classes.

Theresa May and Boris Johnson, look set to join the Tory race against Stephen Crabb and Liam Fox later today.

Theresa May, will be the first to make her ambitions known in a speech at around 9.30am, saying the UK needs to be “a country that works not for a privileged few but for every one of us”.

Which is particularly interesting given that Mr Johnson is apparently set to be back for the leadership by Tory MPs, Rees-Mog, Nicholas Soames, Zac Goldsmith and Jo Johnson (yep his brother).

They are all Etonians...

Hmmm. I think some people are pissed at the school boys.

Anybody else think the Irish have been suspiciously quiet on this?

You can be sure every conversation they had at the summit, on and off the record, was about the new border the English have imposed on them.

What deals are they making?

Yes, the Irish seem to have disappeared. What's up with that?

Fox rules out snap general election if he becomes Conservative leader and PM

BBC Breakfast
Posted at
08:27
Liam Fox rules out a snap general election if he were to win the leadership race and become PM, as well as a second referendum on the EU. He says the focus should be on governing, adding: "We don't need any more interruptions."

If he doesn't win, who would he back? It depends on the candidates' agendas, he says. But he adds: "My aim at the moment is not to go out at all."

The question is do we all join the Tory party to vote on our next PM? Because effectively that is what they will be doing.... My friend is tempted to join but not sure if you have to be a member for a certain amount of time to vote.

I thought NC had lost his seat last year but he still has it. I must have confused him with Cable.

(Still following this fascinating thread)

Agree with the suggestions about Chilcott - do you think JC (anyone else singing Pulp every time they see this?!) is just clinging on long enough to apologise, and then will bow out?

On the 4% UKIP voters who voted Remain, presumably they voted UKIP at the last election and something has changed their minds since then (or of course, they lied in the polls - something that no-one ever seems to consider)

I think Ireland can't do anything officially until somebody suggests some policies and they know who is in charge.

And at the moment they are probably just open mouthed like everyone else, waiting to see what farcical thing happens next.

If they look professional Ireland might unite purely on the basis that they have a parliament, any parliament.

The question is do we all join the Tory party to vote on our next PM? Because effectively that is what they will be doing....
I'm less bothered about the PM bit and more bothered about our exit plan from Europe. All the leadership candidates will be campaigning on that and non Tories don't get a say.

It doesn't look like any of the candidates are in favour of a GE. So looking unlikely that we'll get one - anyone got a ray of hope on this?

isn't that proposal what is actually already in place?

Plato there would be some small differences, although how much impact they would have is debatable given how low the unemployment levels are.

These would be temporary permits directly dependent on having a job, so potentially there would be no right to settle permanently, and no right to bring family unless you make above a certain income. And EU workers would have to go back if they don't have a job, while now they can stay as long as they look for work.

It's basically the same, but less humane and more exploitative.

The Tory party only get to vote when it gets down to best of two.

Liam Fox stood for leader of the Conservative party in 2005 and didn't get very far - I don't think he made it to the last two which was Davis and Cameron.

He was also in big trouble for his expenses over claim and there was the small thing of letting his lobbyist friend attend confidential briefings. Clearly he's perfect for the current job.

'progressive' is a term I particularly despise to be honest. Its a meaningless value word which you generally attach your own definition to. Its unhelpful.

Still I do get the point, I just wish there was a different word.

Brexit - calm before the storm. Yes. Too many jobs in doubt / gone / going. Too much nervousness. The markets have recovered as they know they have 8 weeks before much will happen. And the big red button has been kicked until the spring.

If we start getting talk of a second ref / GE there will be nervousness again. At the moment its like the foundations have been washed away underneath us, but the house hasn't fallen down yet.

That said the Eurozone foundations are not much better. They are exposed too, even if business decides to relocate to the EU - this cost money, so this is money that will not be profit and won't go to share holders (hence why the markets have recovered for the time being too).

We've been told that the Eurozone was about to collapse as part of the argument for leaving the EU. The fact is that Brexit could be the push that tips it still. So leaving/staying will make no odds to how we are affected as we'll still be exposed to it - except we won't be in control of this and will be more at the mercy of events on the continent than we would have been if something else had been a trigger.

There are hints that the US is also due a slow down. There are a lot of predictions of a crash there too, with September being thought of as the month. (Some of this is from reputable economist, some more the David Icke type). This has been said for a while now, and isn't a Brexit thing.

Then there's China... and yeah.

In other news:
Shami Chakrabarti’s report on anti-Semitism in Labour is due at 11am today
(ooo the timing sucks doesn't it)

Farage wants a Brexiteer for the new PM. I guess we suddenly all love Ms May then...?

I checked - you have to be a member of the Conservative party for 3 months before you get to vote. Elections will go to members on 2nd September so not enough time.

still maybe the progressive alliance could force one, if it gets up and running. It would need some tories though. 2/3 of the MPs need to back a vote of no confidence in the govt.
Unfortunately by getting embroiled in their own party politics the Labour party are not in a position to get behind that now which is a shame as we don't have a govt to be confident in atm.
I have the Muse song "Uprising" running through my head most days.

Dh told me that the Chilcot inquiry report is out next week. Apparently it will be a damning indictment of Tony Blair"s premiership.