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Brexit

Have Boris and Jeremy been stabbed in the back? Please can we have some leaders?

999 replies

RedToothBrush · 29/06/2016 16:48

And another thread about antics of President Boris and Comrade Jeremy and all their friends.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/eu_referendum_2016_/2670552-Has-Boris-been-outmanoeuvred?pg=1 Previous thread 1

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/eu_referendum_2016_/2672388-Has-Boris-been-outmanoevered-Will-someone-please-tell-me-who-is-in-charge Previous thread 2

Can we laugh or cry yet?

Are you still sane?

Will this insanity ever end?

OP posts:
Thread gallery
21
EatsShitAndLeaves · 30/06/2016 22:51

So one theory on Labour ATM is that the PLP are deliberately holding off fielding a challenge to Corbyn - for the moment.

The reason being they are still worried the membership would vote him back in.

So better to wait and get support for #savelabour by asking people to join to oust him and play Momentum and Corbyn at their own game.

In addition they are lobbing (with some success) local councillors to come out publicly against Corbyn (apparently 500 have done so) and the Unions to back off or risk tearing the party apart.

The hope is they hedge their bets to a) ideally increase the pressure for Corbyn to resign b) have plan B to fight him in any membership battle by gaining anti Corbyn members.

Alibobbob · 30/06/2016 22:51

I think Bo is playing the longer game. He's letting someone else sort out the mess with Brexit then he'll go for the PM's job next time round.

Galdos · 30/06/2016 22:53

"Britain’s partners are prepared to wait a few months for Mr Cameron’s successor to start the clock ticking, but will start to apply pressure should he or she delay further." But it remains the case that the referendum is advisory only, and there is no requirement that Art. 50 be triggered. In other words, the EU has to hang about waiting until we decide to trigger art 50 (or not). It has a right to expel under Art 7, if we are being 'undemocratic', but invoking that right looks remote.

In other words, we (the UK) probably have many months in which to get our act together before formally Brexiting. How this is perceived by the various factions will play out in the (domestic) factional battles, and after the tergiversations in just 7 days it could end up anywhere.

So buy the popcorn, settle on the sofa, and gawp... We the public are (given the parties' rules) out of it now.

Chalalala · 30/06/2016 22:54

Labour also need to find a credible alternative. Because as far as I can tell, Angela Eagle is Corbyn 2.0... nice and decent, but terminally dull.

MrsLupo · 30/06/2016 22:57

BJ will definitely be back. Can't believe he's already reinvented himself as a victim in all this. Extraordinary.

MajesticWhine · 30/06/2016 23:00

There must be no way back for Boris Johnson. He should never be forgiven for what he's done.

Chalalala · 30/06/2016 23:01

It's genius, really.

Now BJ gets to say he would totally have delivered on every one of his promises, if only he hadn't been betrayed and treacherously deprived from the chance to prove himself.

Damn you Gove! I was really keen on that pet unicorn...

EatsShitAndLeaves · 30/06/2016 23:01

I'd agree with that Chal.

The reason she's the stalking horse though is its seen she has the best chance of winning over the membership - precisely as she is very like JC - just less extreme and more reasonable.

If JC resigns I think her support will drop away.

I'd like to see Dan Jarvis as leader TBH.

MaterofDragons · 30/06/2016 23:01

BoZo is definitely not playing the longer game. Gove's sucker punch came out of nowhere. He had no idea what was going to happen this morning.

applecatchers36 · 30/06/2016 23:01

Please can David Milliband or Dan Jarvis take a stand for leader of the Labour Party. We need someone who can win elections, even a progressive liberal -socialist alliance, of Green, LD & labour ...

We need a strong opposition who can mobilise the remainders and boot out the Tories ASAP

RedToothBrush · 30/06/2016 23:04

BoZo is definitely not playing the longer game. Gove's sucker punch came out of nowhere. He had no idea what was going to happen this morning.

The expression on his face said it all.

He was late for the press conference.

He was blindsided.

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Hamishandthefoxes · 30/06/2016 23:05

I don't think this is a Boris//Gove plot. I think Boris genuinely feels that Gove screwed him over (with a bit of help from Osbourne?) Headline in Telegraph - Boris' employer:

www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/06/30/how-boris-johnson-was-brought-to-his-knees-by-the-cuckoo-nest-pl/

MG persauded BJ against his better judgement to support leave - BJ was about to declare for Remain. MG was persuasing BJ to be leader then screwed him over....

Bearbehind · 30/06/2016 23:06

BoZo is definitely not playing the longer game. Gove's sucker punch came out of nowhere. He had no idea what was going to happen this morning

Time will tell but I'd make a significant bet that it's all a very carefully orchestrated sequence of events.

OK, they massively fucked up by thinking Leave would lose but now it's being pulled around and they won't be caught short again.

It is genius and, purely from a PR perspective it's fucking incredible.

snowy508601 · 30/06/2016 23:12

I agree BoJo is playing the long game . The conservative party want a Patsy to push the Brexit button, who they will knife I the back before the next general election.

NigellasGuest · 30/06/2016 23:12

from The Guardian
Tory grandee Michael Heseltine launched a stinging attack on Johnson, saying he must answer for the consequences of the campaign to take the UK out of the EU.

“He has ripped the Tory party apart, he has created the greatest constitutional crisis in peacetime in my life,” he told the BBC. “He has knocked billions off the value of the savings of the British people.”

Johnson, said Lord Heseltine, was like “a general who marches his army to the sound of the guns and the moment he sees the battleground he abandons it … The pain of it will be felt by all of us and, if it doesn’t get resolved shortly, by a generation to come yet.”

HemanOrSheRa · 30/06/2016 23:13

I have read all 3 of these threads with much interest but haven't commented. I'm not as knowledgeable or articulate as many of you.

I'll say this though (I've been stewing on this for a few days). I am bloody furious with JC. He has not stepped up as a leader of the labour party AT ALL. I've been a labour party member, a trade union member and a local government officer for 26 years. And I voted for JC because I thought he would introduce a kinder, more understanding side to politics. He hasn't delivered that in any sort of coherent way. His high falutin' principles have gotten the labour party precisely nowhere. He needs to go.

EatsShitAndLeaves · 30/06/2016 23:13

BoJo was fucked over - but ironically I think
it's Osborne pulling the strings here.

Persuades Gove to stand and thus nullify BoJo who messed up his chance to be PM (remember Osbourne was counting on Cameron making way for him).

Then he can come out in favour of May and do the double chop.

DoinItFine · 30/06/2016 23:13

But it remains the case that the referendum is advisory only, and there is no requirement that Art. 50 be triggered

There is only so far the UK can push the "no requirement" thing without making clear statements that the referendum result will not be acted upon.

They will not be allowed to hold the Brexit thing over the EU forever.

They are currently effectively suspended from council summits, they have no commissioner, meetings are taking plsce thst they are not invited to.

That limbo is no use to anyone and spinning it out eill just oiss off people whose patience you have already tested to close to its limit.

I reckon hy the end of 2016 or the start of the new year they will invoke article 50.

Or else not invoke it. But that will be an active desision not to invoke.

MrsLupo · 30/06/2016 23:16

MG persauded BJ against his better judgement to support leave - BJ was about to declare for Remain.

Poor BJ. It must be awful being so dim you get confused about which campaign you want to join. Gove must be much more influential than he looks.

puglife15 · 30/06/2016 23:16

Johnson apparently already had close to the 111 MPs to win the leadership

He pulled out because he wanted to, not because Gimpy Gove stitched him up. Surely?

HemanOrSheRa · 30/06/2016 23:17

I agree apple and Eat. I would love Dan Jarvis to stand for leader. He would get my vote. There is quite a bit on social media about him standing. Although he is keeping a dignified silience.

Hamishandthefoxes · 30/06/2016 23:19

Well, I think it can get awfully hard to remember silly things like. Principles and firm belief when you're thinking about your dinner companion being trapped in a toilet, or falling over. Be always said he wasn't a details man, perhaps he didn't listen to the details?!

Btw comment I saw on FB: is this the first time BJ has withdrawn from anything?!

MrsLupo · 30/06/2016 23:21

Journo Tom Bradby has posted this on fb. An interesting read for those considering the rise of the female politician:

After seven days of spectacular chaos, the fog is now starting to lift. I think it is possible to see what the way ahead might look like. Here's my best guess;

1) Theresa May will be the next Tory leader. Although it is not unheard of for the man who wields the knife to wear the crown (think Gordon Brown), I suspect Michael Gove's spectacular, sudden and brutal knifing of his former ally this morning probably does for his own leadership prospects. Even for the Tory party, the sight of this much blood might be too much to stomach.

2) As Theresa's campaign manager, Chris Grayling is likely to be the man in charge of Brexit. I suspect Boris Johnson and (if he doesn't win) Michael Gove are probably finished as serious forces in modern British politics. Their behaviour seems frankly erratic. And that is putting it politely.

3) Theresa May has already said she won't trigger Article Fifty this year. I think this kicks it firmly into the long grass. That is not the same as saying we are going to stay in the EU, after all - I suspect that boat has sailed - but Theresa May is a quiet, cautious politician. My every instinct is that she will hit the brake and keep her foot on it for a very long time. As the country senses this, an uneasy calm may begin to descend.

4) Mr Juncker can say what he likes, our future relationship with the EU is going to be decided by one woman above all others; Angela Merkel. In their first meeting, I imagine Theresa will make an argument that goes something like this; 'I have not triggered article fifty and I have no plans to do so any time soon. We helped to build the Single Market, we are a critical part of the European economy and it makes no sense to exclude us. I will not trigger our departure until there is a clear understanding that there will be no attempt to punish us. That said, whilst we might accept the principle of freedom of movement per se ( in a world where the GDP per capita ratios of member countries are aligned) it is clearly creating strains across the continent. This is not just a British problem. Therefore, what is required is a measure that returns control of immigration policy to national governments. You could call it an emergency brake - thus preserving the absolute principle of Freedom of Movement. Once the economies of member countries come into GDP per capita alignment, the problem is likely to evaporate. No one is complaining about the influx of Italians into the UK. If you, Angela, do not agree to this, the problems will spread to other populations and other countries. You know this, therefore the way ahead is clear.'

5) The fact that this conversation is likely to take place in private between two quiet, clever, cautious women suggests to me that there is a much higher prospect of success than might otherwise be the case (if I am sounding like an out and out feminist here, that is because each passing day makes me more of one...). It is also possible that a third woman in the same mould may join the conversation from the White House in November. This in itself could provide a major contribution to calming everything down. That said, the noisy entrance of a President Trump might push Angela Merkel and Theresa May closer together anyway.

6) By allowing concessions within the EU, Ms Merkel would reduce the incentive for other countries to leave. For those in the Euro, leaving is fraught with all kinds of attendant complications anyway, so there is a decent chance that the sense the centre is listening and yielding on immigration policy may take the heat out of the equation and make it easier for progress to be achieved in areas that are arguably more central to the German mission (such as proper fiscal union).

7) In this scenario (dependent on a lot of 'ifs', I grant you), one might argue that there would be, in the end, little point in us ever actually leaving the EU (if we have got what we always wanted, why leave?). But there are a few other points to consider here. It is not just that we have voted to leave (a pretty central fact for the incoming Prime Minister in itself). The truth is very few people have bothered to make a positive case for the EU in recent times. It has been repeatedly used as the scapegoat for a million issues and, true or not, it is very hard to reverse that tide of rhetoric. If Ms May could achieve what I suspect she would want - a quiet, cautious divorce that keeps us in the Single Market, retains the City's status as the financial capital of Europe and settles the rest of the EU down - then that is likely to prove a much more attractive political option than going over the ground a second time.

Galdos · 30/06/2016 23:21

Hamish, sounds very plausible. It's only a week since the atom bomb dropped and we are still alive: the referendum is advisory only, and the government can dick about for ages while it ponders the result. The EU can chuck us out for being undemocratic under Art 7, but the basis for doing so is very muddy.

So we should keep calm and carry on, although if Art 50 is triggered we are in no-mans-land.

UK politicians will be jockeying to claim credit for/distance responsibility from/ whatever results, depending what it is. There is still scope for you and me looking again at the question, most likely through a general election (but remember the Fixed Term Parliaments Act 2011).

MitzyLeFrouf · 30/06/2016 23:23

'His high falutin' principles have gotten the labour party precisely nowhere. He needs to go.'

He really, really does. I have some sympathies for him but it's gone too far now. And I read something today that said Corbyn wants to step down but McDonnell is urging him to hang on a while longer.