When do you think it will feel better?

[FlopIsMyHero]

I know lots of you will want to say: "get over yourselves already", but please be kind (or say nothing!).

But for those of you for whom this is genuinely devastating, emotionally, morally, practically (if you or partner is non-British), or job-wise - when do you think it will start to feel better?

I'm waking every morning feeling as if, yes, the sky has fallen if, or as if I've experienced a personal bereavement.

I just wondered, as I asked you elsewhere but you didn't respond. I expect you must have missed it - I shall go and have a look.

YY. I know we're supposed to be getting on with it but getting on with what exactly.

The uncertainty and lack of leadership is not exactly reassuring.

AuntDotsie yes, I'm so glad to have re-discovered him. It doesn't change reality, just helped me relax a bit last night. His voice is very soothing.

Look - I know I'm not the thread police, and maybe it's inevitable that all these discussions will go in circles over and over again ... But perhaps this thread should be less about arguing the rights and wrongs of Brexit, and more about discussing how the shock, panic and feelings will fade for those who cannot agree with the reasoning by those who voted leave.

I suspect the big answer for all of this is we won't be over the shock or the feelings until there's more certainty of what's happening going forward. Neither "side" knows what's coming really. Surely we can unite in that much at least.

Meanwhile if the "leavers" could perhaps be a bit more sensitive to those worried, that would be great. If you're not at all concerned, then you could perhaps back off this type of thread, and discuss the victory elsewhere. Others do have a right to work through their own feelings without being patronised or dismissed - and if it were the other way around, you'd want that too.

Whether you are leave or remain, there was no plan for the future.

The difference is that in order for us to Leave requires us to actually take steps to do so! Is this really so controversial? Really?

If the referendum was "Is the status quo (including how the EU works and all the other stuff that's going on in our lives) for people really kind of Shit or Not?" then Shit would have won by a 99% landslide. But as you said yourself, that was not the question we were asked.

When Gove goes and crawls back into the depths of hell he climbed out of.
This is when I will start to feel better.

Exactly, nobody knows what's going to happen because the debate hasn't started in earnest about what comes next. This is where all of us has a part to play in actually debating this if we care enough to be engaged in politics rather than just having a moan and being rude to others.

I can't wait for the pace to pick up so that we start talking the nitty gritty of what comes next, but it's going to be messy.

Put 52 people who voted leave in a room together and you will have 52 different views as to what their ideal is outside the EU is for the future.

Add in 48 people who voted to remain and ask them what, other than being full members of the EU, their ideal relationship with the EU would be and you'd then have a 100 people who who come to a majority view with a few loud and angry souls holding extreme views on the outside edge of each side. The majority would agree on a lot but still disagree on much, and would certainly disagree on what compromises they'd be prepared to make to secure their ideal.

The are so many variables but it is not the preserve of the leave campaign to decide what comes next. The 48% who voted to remain haven't lost their rights to shape the future just because they didn't win the referendum!

Question is, how much of the population is capable in rational good quality debate, even when we aren't being agreed with?

*flippinada I was trying avoid derailing the thread rather than trying to sideline your question. In my view the EU stands in the way of us making the most of global opportunities and potentially much higher growth long term. In short, I want a Norway style free trade agreement to protect our European interests but with the freedom to trade worldwide. I think it was folly to move away from the original aims all those years ago of a free trade agreement and instead towards being a highly integrated superstate. That was achieved by salami tactics though which is difficult to oppose. No other trade block is enmeshed as the EU. However some things can't be undone without complete implosion so a Norway style free trade agreement is my best case scenario based on today's reality, not my ideals that aren't realistically achievable.

(Please note: all smilies have been omitted to please figment )

Surely only an imbecile wouldn't realise that the Remain vote was the status quo, and thus no planning needed.

Ok Joysmum, thank you. Disagreements aside, (I don't wish to derail either), I genuinely appreciate you taking the time to answer.

I do fear that those on the bottom tier (I'm not quite there, but I am close) are going to suffer disproportionately with this and that is a huge personal worry.

I find all this uncertainty very unsettling.

flippinada anyone who isn't unsettled at this stage needs their head read.

That is genuinely lovely idea, Joysmum, but I'm slightly agog that you actually think that will happen.

Put 52 people who voted leave in a room together and you will have 52 different views as to what their ideal is outside the EU is for the future.

Why yes, on this board alone there are probably 52 different dreams for the future. There are the people who seek a neoliberal, regulation-free, unfettered capitalism dystopia, the people who seek a left-wing socialist utopia, people who want the Norway model (in which case what was the bloody point?), people who want to stop EU immigration, people who want to stop ALL immigration, people who didn't trust the government for wanting to Remain but apparently now absolutely trust them to arrange to Leave, people who straight up accuse expert academics who disagree with them of corruption, people who accuse those who have lost their jobs of making it all up, people who accuse those who have reported racism of lying (or making an excessive fuss because, hey, they weren't murdered ), people who have told those who are feeling sad and unwelcome to get a fucking grip, people who have told those who are thinking of leaving because of the previous to fuck off... And most of all, people who have told those who voted to Remain to shut up and stop asking questions.

How about all those people who are the majority , decide what it is they want to achieve before bleating at the minority (remember?) to all come together and hold hands?

it is not the preserve of the leave campaign to decide what comes next. The 48% who voted to remain haven't lost their rights to shape the future just because they didn't win the referendum!

(1) See above. We've been told to shut up and accept, haven't we? (2) In that case, I would like to shape the future by Remaining in the EU.

Norway model involves complying with all EU rules around the things that the leavers say mater to them (in particular freedom of movement) but with no place around the negotiating table and therefore no ability to play a part in shaping those rules. Its lose, lose. Why on earth would any right minded person think that was a better option?

How about all those people who are the majority , decide what it is they want to achieve before bleating at the minority (remember?)

Because everybody has the right to a view.

I have more in common with those who voted to remain than I do with those who voted to leave because they want no relationship with the EU if it means we can't control our own borders, have to pay in, lose any of our sovereignty. This isn't an issue for those voting remain.

For those of us voting on balance, we need the support of pro EU who want the best deal posible short of being full members.

To get what I want, I need the remain vote plus only a few % of those who voted leave to get the majority. It'll be quicker to get my ideal with remain voters playing an active role.

For the economy I reckon it will get better in about 10 years time once the UK has renegotiated all its trade agreements and recovered from the shock.

redhat

I explained some of my reasoning at 11:44

I'm sorry, I didn't want to retail this thread but you'll find me on others where I've gone into more detail as its more relevant elsewhere. I'll hopefully see you on the threads that are for debating what comes next.

I think it's just going to feel worse and worse and worse.

I've read a few comments from politicians now which are very worrying. I get the sense that EU migrants in the UK are now seen as bargaining chips not people and there's been no mention at all of brits living in other countries. It gives the impression that people like me will be thrown to the wolves for any political advantage that gains.

Exactly how I feel too Agneta...

Is this guy for real?
metro.co.uk/2016/06/30/ukip-lord-calls-for-eu-nationals-to-be-used-as-hostages-in-brussels-discussions-5975655/

Yes he is. Sadly he's saying what many are thinking. I hadn't heard his speech before you posted it. But I've already picked up the same message from other sources. :(

I've also seen on forums local to me calls for a retaliatory attitude towards Brits living here to that being shown to their nationals living in the UK. It's frightening.

where are you agneta?

I feel more normal but still like I'm living in an episode of Big Brother

I have been posting on facebook which I never do.

On a bright note, I feel truly reconciled to someone I fell out with 5 years ago and we have been comforting each other. Clutching at straws here.

I'm in Sweden in an area where SverigeDemokraterna (the racist party) have too strong a presence.

I'm worried too about a backlash to British pp worldwide, we've pissed off just about every nationality going.

Please God make it stop!

What was all this misery for...?

Oh gosh agneta I don't like the sound of that. But swedes are normally not known for their passionate outbursts so I hope you won't experience anything unpleasant in this respect.