Democracy 'Intelligent' people vs 'stupid' people

[TinnTinn]

Some people are too stupid to be allowed to vote. I've been hearing a lot of this since the referendum.

Should this come into democracy? Or is it possible that different socio economic, political and regional groups within a country have very different experiences, wants, needs, hopes and aspirations. Chances are these will differ from other groups of people. Does this somehow invalidate their views?

Do politicians and the media want critical thinkers? Because when you encourage critical thinking, then people start to think. To reflect. To see through lies. Do politicians want that - or do they want nice compliant worker bees [cynical]

I agree that it is definitely a matter of policy. It's also the reason they knock the NHS "a healthy, well educated population is harder to govern".

You're dead right, Lurking.

In my area 50,000 vote in the general election and 80,000 voted in the EU ref. I think if you can't be arsed to vote in the GE you shouldn't have been given this vote.

Oh don't get on to bloody Montesquieu; I've just finished a year of studying law at A Level equivalent (against my will) and would ideally never have to see the words "separation of powers" again

There were a lot of people this referendum who I think couldn't be bothered to do any research and understand the issues prior to voting

Do you think that applied to both sides?

Yes. It's the difference between ignorance and stupidity I guess. People that genuinely don't have the ability to understand the issues - fair enough. But I think a lot of people could have learnt something about the issues if they had chosen to, they just couldn't be bothered to and would rather vote in ignorance.

the "status quo" would have been (to have continued) the direction the EU was moving in

Or the direction they thought it was moving in...

some felt the UK was better engaging and changing the direction from within

How? The EU has shown itself to be unreformable time and again.

I wonder how many people on this thread (no Googling now smile) understand the concepts of "executive", "government", "judiciary","legislature" and their roles and limitations in the UK political system ? And then "separation of powers"

Yes Prime Minister on the effects of people on democracy

So why not just pick the most intelligent person in the country and let them run a dictatorship?

"The EU has shown itself to be unreformable time and again"

Yes that's right cause it is still the same as the European Coal and Steel union isn't it? Or the EEC?

It has changed and reformed as the nation states have seen fit. What this statement means is: "The EU has failed to give the UK correct deference and adhere to the needs and wants of the UK solely, which is our right."

Basically another load of soundbite bollocks. :)

Any USians watching this train-wreck ?

Trump notwithstanding, it's always struck me that US citizens seem a lot more "buzzy" about democracy - maybe the myth of the revolution is part of the national psyche. Midnight rides, plucky farmers standing up to the tyranny of the British and other fairy stories.

P.J. O'Rourke once described the US constitution as a manual to run a country - it includes instructions on how to expand, add territories, and work government. (He also pointed out it's 12 pages to the 200+ for his car ). Isn't learning the constitution a US core subject ?

It's not confusing the issue, as the US system of government was consciously patterned after the UK system as it was in 1776.

At the end of the day, Remain lost the campaign rather than Leave winning it.

Remain could easily have won by showing even the tiniest bit of respect to the voters and explaining things properly rather than their pathetic "project fear" which few believed. Remain could have come up with a believable list of benefits, but they didn't. Remain could have had a positive campaign, but didn't.

It was an ideal opportunity to show the voters that the politicians weren't out of touch and didn't treat the voters as idiots. An ideal time to educate to voters and dispel some of the myths. They didn't, and they lost.

Forget who now,but someone said'Democracy is two sheep and a wolf voting for lunch.'

"There were a lot of people this referendum who I think couldn't be bothered to do any research and understand the issues prior to voting"

This is exactly it. Even if an objective manifesto setting out the potential pros and cons of Leave and Remain had been hand delivered to every voter, a sizeable portion of the population wouldn't have read it because its easier to watch Gogglebox instead.

Don't blame others for your own failure to be informed.

If you want to understand how the EU operates, what constraints/benefits it places on the UK etc - read a book.

If you want to understand the cause of the 2007 recession (the seed from which much of the current civil unrest has grown) - read a book.

If you can't be bothered than admit there was little logical rationale behind your vote.
Sadly there will be a lot of 'reap what you sow' for already economically deprived parts of the country when Osborne announces the Autumn spending cuts...

Given the state the world is in, I feel it was a matter of united we stand or divided we fall and we voted to fall. The question was not asked at a time in history when people were in the mood to compromise with each other. There is no point asking people to vote directly against each other and then telling them to unite. You really don't need to be intelligent to understand that concept...

LurkingHusband I was living in the US during the 2000 Presidential elections. That was a bit of a mess too, as I recall.

Even if an objective manifesto setting out the potential pros and cons of Leave and Remain had been hand delivered to every voter, a sizeable portion of the population wouldn't have read it because its easier to watch Gogglebox instead

Would reading it have made any difference to people on both sides- even if they understood it?

I feel sad that it is taking this for people to realise and discuss the different education and academia standards in this country. The last head of DCs sec school said "you only have to be average to gain good results at this school whereas other schools you need to be exceptional". Yet it is the latter of the two that feels the impact of immigration. If only we could of openly debated this to relieve the pressure years ago we would not be where we are.

Stop using the term "project fear" both times it has been used it has been proved to be correct.

It wasn't project fear it was:" These are the risks."

I don't blame the remain camp at all. I blame the leave camp for their rampant dishonesty, their genuine exploitation of people's fears and their lack of planning for what comes next.

Continuing to use "project fear" shows a real deficit of understanding tbh.

The information I heard about intelligence and the referendum was that remain voters were more likely to be graduates, but I also heard that remain voters were more likely to be younger. No one mentioned confounding...

some felt the UK was better engaging and changing the direction from within

How? confused The EU has shown itself to be unreformable time and again.

I would humbly suggest that - compared to other countries - the UK never really "did" Europe. (Which suggests our motives for joining were less than pure from the off ...). Maybe I'm being unfair to Mrs Thatcher, but she pretty much set nature of the UK/EU relationship through the 80s. So we became accustomed to this "Them" v. "Us" level of discussion.

Frankly, I would put forward the POV that since 1972, the EEC/EC/EU has only ever mattered to UK politicians as an object of obfuscation and smoke and mirrors when it came to furthering their aims. Unpopular policy ? Blame the EU. Called out on it by the EU ? "Well, Johnny Foreigner would say that wouldn't he ?" etc.

We joined a band, because we thought we'd get free drugs, laid every night, and a no. 1 hit single. Then we grumble because we're expected at rehearsal, and have to pay petrol money. If the EU was the Happy Mondays, then the UK was Bez (high fives anyone who gets the obscure 1990s NME reference ).

It wasn't project fear it was

But isn't Project Fear a great way of manipulating people's emotions and getting them to disbelieve what experts are saying...

Thats why government by referenda is not ideal. Ideally we would choose the wisest from amongst us (thats the democratic bit) to make informed decisions on our behalf

Just a little more of project fact being correct.

Goldman and Morgan Stanley are about to move 2000 jobs out of the city each in order to secure EU passporting status no matter what happens with the negotiations.

The thinking is that for every 1k banking jobs lost the UK loses £100 million in taxes and £325 million in output.

So who would like to do the calculations for when 100 thousand jobs are lost from the city as predicted?

As said prior to leaving the EU, if you leave there is an enormous chance the "savings" will simply be swallowed by the fall in tax take.

Funny that eh.

It's also why we need to look at our voting system to get a Government that is representative of the views of the electorate. We need more concensus politics - that's why coalitions can work sometimes.

As said prior to leaving the EU, if you leave there is an enormous chance the "savings" will simply be swallowed by the fall in tax take

I never did hear a satisfactory answer to that point. We are going to have an extra £8 billion from not paying the EU - but how do you spend that extra £8 billion when the tax take falls by more than £8 billion?