Democracy 'Intelligent' people vs 'stupid' people

[TinnTinn]

Some people are too stupid to be allowed to vote. I've been hearing a lot of this since the referendum.

Should this come into democracy? Or is it possible that different socio economic, political and regional groups within a country have very different experiences, wants, needs, hopes and aspirations. Chances are these will differ from other groups of people. Does this somehow invalidate their views?

Everyone of voting age should have the right to vote, regardless of IQ, education, age or creed.

It would be nice, but sadly there is no way to enforce it, it everyone took care to think about their vote and what they're voting for. On both sides!!!

I'm frustrated by lazy voters. There were a lot of people this referendum who I think couldn't be bothered to do any research and understand the issues prior to voting. I do think that people who have bothered to have researched the issues and have an understanding of the complexities of the issue have more of a right to have a vote (whichever way that may be) than those who were too lazy to bother.

well seeing as women only got their mandate to vote last century and working class men in the 19thC the agreement that every adult should have a vote is relatively recent. To be honest part of me wants to make voting mandatory along with making politics and government part of the national curriculum.

An informed electorate is the ideal but it is not something you can create purely through legislation and education, not really. The conditions have to be right and even when they are political engagement is a frustrating thing at the best of times. I had a politically aware and active family, read the newspaper took part in rallies and joined the Labour Party at University, worked in Local Government and have voted in every election I can. I am still pretty disillusioned by the political system my vote doesn't get the political party I want in power today and even when it did they ended up betraying many of values/ principles I hold dear. I don't really blame 'stupid people' I blame arrogant politicians, who think ahead only in 5 year chunks and really have no plan other than to hold onto the illusion of power they have. They have huge power over the poor and vulnerable and virtually none over big business and banks.

But the power we have just wielded like a toddler driving a bus in this EU referendum I really don't know what will happen - no one does - that is what is frightening people and making them aggressive. It could work out ok? but at the moment even the government is immobilized and that is a scary thing, a power vacuum can be a breeding ground for extremism and that concerns me deeply.

There were a lot of people this referendum who I think couldn't be bothered to do any research and understand the issues prior to voting

Do you think that applied to both sides?

I think a lot of this vote was gut instinct. Nothing anyone could say would change their mind.

I really did despair at some of the comments I saw on MN and other mainstream media. Maybe Norway will follow us now was one of my favourites.

What about the POV that the UKs FPTP system curbs the effects of the more radical fringes in society ?

Particularly when you consider that "Democracy is two wolves and a sheep deciding what to have for dinner." ?

Its not that simple. Not by a long shot.

There were some stupid people
There were some naïve people
There were some desperate people who wanted to do harm by any means to the government
There were some desperate people who wanted hope.
There were some incredibly clever people who knew how to persuade others
There were some clever people who resent the EU and understand it
There were some clever people with a rosy vision of the past
There were some educated people who want a political and economic revolution and don't give two shits about who gets hurt in the meantime

Ultimately, people will believe what they want to believe. Which is why so many Remain voters didn't see it coming, didn't believe it would happen and have been shocked by the result. Even when the signs were all right in front of their eyes. Because of their own belief blinkers.

That makes them dumb.

That makes them dumb

That makes them human. We aren't very good at making rational decisions based on all the available evidence.

As I have said - 50% of the population are below average intelligence
So there were some on the 'remain' side too so I would suppose the 'ignorant' votes as you call them balanced each others side
But from your 'holier than thou' right-on virtue signalling elitist position (you do realise that MN is not a valid sample of the UK) you are failing to acknowledge that the not all voters swallowed the lies, scare-mongering and rhetoric from either side. There are some voters out there who may not be 'educated' but they have common sense enough to make THEIR valid choice (even if it contradicts with yours (as in the wider meaning of 'yours'))

I was very surprised at how often people said things like "I know nothing about it, but will vote remain to keep the status quo". There was no "status quo", as the EU will forge ahead with all kinds of things.

What invalidates their opinions is when they were licked off the grass.

Before you get to vote you should have to answer a couple of basic questions on what the vote is about. Something that you don't need much intelligence for, just the most basic interest in events.
For example, the thousands of people googling "what is the EU" AFTER the vote shouldn't have been allowed to have a vote.

the thousands of people googling "what is the EU" AFTER the vote shouldn't have been allowed to have a vote.

It doesn't mean they don't know what the EU is. It could easily mean they're looking for how others define it, or they're 16 and writing an essay.

That was actually one thousand people - don't be such a sucker for sound bites. That IS foolish.

Plenty of people looked up actual EU laws and history, considered what might happen and then made the best or least worst decision for them.

There are a lot of fools around, including the nearly 30% who didn't vote . but fool does not equate to 'disagrees with me'

That Ireland thing seems like the best solution to me

There were a lot of soundbites that were misinformation.

Such as how many UK laws are set by the EU.

Easy soundbite - but very complicated when analysed.

We live in a soundbite generation - headlines stick. When people actually ask questions about what happens, the answers aren't as easy as people think.

Such as how the EU works, how the Commission works, how the commision relates to the UK civil service etc etc.

Things are more complicated than simple soundbites. But people like soundbites. Politicians like soundbites. It's hard to undo soundbites and they stick.

Is it a matter of intelligence, or is it that we actively discourage critical thinking in our children.

One of the most complained about phases children go through is the "why?" stage. Instead of explaining & if necessary learning together most parents make up fantasy answers or just say "because I said so".

Then they go to school and learn exactly what they need to know to pass an exam and are not encouraged to question anything.

Is it any surprise that a lot of people accept the versions put forward by which ever newspaper or news program that they see and don't question it any further?

I was very surprised at how often people said things like "I know nothing about it, but will vote remain to keep the status quo". There was no "status quo", as the EU will forge ahead with all kinds of things.

No, the "status quo" would have been (to have continued) the direction the EU was moving in. Some people were happy with that.

And of the people that weren't it's possible that some felt the UK was better engaging and changing the direction from within, rather than wailing outside.

Is it a matter of intelligence, or is it that we actively discourage critical thinking in our children

Do politicians and the media want critical thinkers? Because when you encourage critical thinking, then people start to think. To reflect. To see through lies. Do politicians want that - or do they want nice compliant worker bees [cynical]

Seems particularly rife in the UK, where there's always been a slight suspicion of appearing "clever".

I don't think of myself as particularly "clever" but I would agree that there's a suspicion.

I was trying to discuss a meme with a friend. She'd posted ones with pictures of young people with the caption "old people stole our future" next to soldiers from WWI/WWII with a caption about how they gave us our future in the first place, lists of things certain age groups had lived through (like rationing, German bombing, etc.) - I was pointing out that the things they claimed those she groups had experienced happened either before they were born or when they were very young.

I was polite and using words and everything; she just kept coming back with more memes and eventually accused me of "asserting my intelligence", telling me to "back off". I managed to avoid retorting with a request for her to stop asserting her stupidity, partly because it's rude and partly because it's completely irrelevant! Wilful ignorance vs. proper research is what matters when you're chosing how to vote, not (perceived) IQ.

Mencken said: "Democracy is the art and science of running the circus from the monkey cage."

I think that just about sums up where we are now.

We should have had a 'I don't really know, I don't like the EU at the moment but I'm not convinced we should leave but I don't want to stay in the EU as it is' option.

That would have been a powerful signal.

There's also the rather more subtle question of what type of democracy we are talking about ...

The UKs parliamentary democracy is built on the concept that a constituency returns a representative (MP) to whom they have delegated the job of government. The delegate is trusted with judgement and the welfare of his constituents and meets in parliament.

Referenda don't really have a part to play in that system. As we are now finding out. Direct rule by the electorate is not, never has been and (you can be damn sure now) will never be a central feature of UK parliamentary democracy.

And we've gone full circle. This fucking referendum had nothing to do with the EU and everything to do with internal Tory party politics.

I wonder how many people on this thread (no Googling now ) understand the concepts of "executive", "government", "judiciary","legislature" and their roles and limitations in the UK political system ? And then "separation of powers" ?

*those age groups

Stupid people are absolutely as entitled to a vote as educated/learned/well read/engaged people.

On the other hand, there are some things that absolutely should NOT be put to referendum (for exactly this reason).

The truth, imo, is that there were good intellectual reasons for staying in and good intellectual reasons for voting out. Politically, however, now was not the time to discuss them. We have enough problems in the world at the moment without another massive distraction and another reminder of how divided we all are. This referendum was always going to be divisive and it was never going to solve any of the more important and pressing matters we should be focussing on. It does highlight what a mess the world is in, though. All that is happening around the world has a grotesque inevitability, just like WW1 and WW2. Bollocks to it all settling down - it won't. We will still have refugees, poverty, massive inequality, greed, selfishness, terrorism, violent unrest, climate change and dwindling resources.