Democracy 'Intelligent' people vs 'stupid' people

[TinnTinn]

Some people are too stupid to be allowed to vote. I've been hearing a lot of this since the referendum.

Should this come into democracy? Or is it possible that different socio economic, political and regional groups within a country have very different experiences, wants, needs, hopes and aspirations. Chances are these will differ from other groups of people. Does this somehow invalidate their views?

[petitpois55]

I think there are vast swathes of the population who are far too stupid to be allowed anywhere near a ballot box.

I was watching people being asked on the street (somewhere in South Wales) which way they were going to vote. Many of them said out because there were too many immigrants taking their jobs, and that lots of money was going to the EU that should be spent on them.

The journalist helpfully pointed out that Wales was a huge beneficiary of EU funds, and in fact the market this man was standing outside had in the last couple of years benefited from a grant to turn in in to a working market as it had become dilapidated and was not fit for purpose.

The look on this blokes face was priceless. She asked him if this would in any way influence his decision in voting, but he stuck to his no vote cos of all them immigrants.
Fucking moron..

[PausingFlatly]

like the Irish referendum campaign commission

[seemslikeonlyyesterday]

Unfortunately in this situation I think the elite, who see themselves as more intelligent and better than everyone else, just couldn't conceive that anyone would have a different view point to their own. When they did they have concluded that those people must be stupid.

I also think that currently the 'exit' crowd are branded 'stupid' because of the initial shock and fall out. However if 'remain' had won and then the EU had marched on and the things that people fear came to fruition would the remainers then be stupid?

[RainYourRottingMyDhaliaBulbs]

Lets face it, only one side in this has ever claimed people are too stupid to vote. Some of the Leave side.

But that fits the profile, if your happy to concede your powers to elsewhere your simply not pro democracy.

I have seen many posters claim the public should not have been allowed a vote. I wonder if they also think the same citizens should have forced sterilisation, perhaps be forced to live in a ghetto so their superiors can make all the big choices maybe forced to wear a dunces bagde?

[RainYourRottingMyDhaliaBulbs]

Petit maybe his day to day life was so dire he didnt care?

A similar situation was played in the north east and the guy laughed that some hall had been pointed out to him, built with EU money.

He couldn't care less.

[SeekEveryEveryKnownHidingPlace]

History actually seems to me to focus much more strongly on American than British history - they all seem to know about American Civil rights (and rightly so, of course), but not about Chartism, our civil war, etc. There's also a worrying trend (IMO) of teaching with a general theme that things were bad Back Then and are sorted out now - Victorians hated women, Americans hated black people, but now we're all lovely and free.

[petitpois55]

Rain if his day to day life is so shit, it's up to him to try to change it. Blaming immigrants, and a lack of a grasp of basic economics is not any excuse. It's going to be people like him who are well and truly shafted in the next few years, and it will be all of his own doing..

[RainYourRottingMyDhaliaBulbs]

You need philosophy in school, you need to teach the evolution of ideas, so children can see where things come from, its never set they are organic and if you can think up something brilliant, go forward with it.

IE people enslaved to the ideology of the EU. Philosophy and politics need to be main stream.

[smallfox1980]

"if your happy to concede your powers to elsewhere your simply not pro democracy. "

What powers do individuals have other than the vote? We don't have powers.

Can you explain what the EU has enforced on the UK that has been so bad?

Secondly, as you said, the man in the north east laughed, well they won't be laughing in future because essentially they have voted to their own detriment. Its all very well and good not caring when you vote, but it is bloody stupid when its not in your best interest.

[RainYourRottingMyDhaliaBulbs]

But if immigration is his issue how can he change that?

we know poor areas are where poor immigrants are going to move, and if you have a house with one family, suddenly hosting a huge amount of people, that will spill over into social issues. what is he suppose to do about that?

[RainYourRottingMyDhaliaBulbs]

Immigration!

Who are you to tell people that, it smacks of the idea people do not know whats best for themselves which comes back to what else dont they know about themselves?

strip them of their human rights? stick dunce stars on them? make them live in a ghetto?

[sorenofthejnaii]

One thing is for sure - it's opened up massive debate on MN. But MN is not typical of society. I do wonder what conversations are being had elsewhere - especially by people in areas that voted Leave.

We do hear some Leave voices on MN - but I strongly suspect that we aren't hearing that many voices from areas that voted Leave. We are hearing the MN people who voted Leave.

[SapphireStrange]

Unfortunately in this situation I think the elite, who see themselves as more intelligent and better than everyone else, just couldn't conceive that anyone would have a different view point to their own. When they did they have concluded that those people must be stupid.

Does anyone really believe that leading, if unofficial, Leave campaigner Nigel Farage (public school; stockbroker father) does not represent 'the elite'? Not to mention, of course, Johnson et al.

The 'elite' exist on both sides.

[smallfox1980]

Um, the north east has an incredibly low level of immigration.

Even in the "over run" town of Boston, they have 5,000 and something migrants in a town of 58,000.

The issue is far more complex than that, and also, immigration will not fall outside of the EU.

[smallfox1980]

The elite argument is a load of bullshit.

One group of disenfranchised voters have been duped into voting for the interests of the neo conservative, neo liberal elite. Farrage, Johnson, Gove, Rothemere, The Barclays, Murdoch et al.

They are so well known for their interest in fair terms and conditions and helping to re develop deprived areas aren't they.

Yet you voted for their agenda.

[SeekEveryEveryKnownHidingPlace]

It was the elite that the Leave voters backed. If they think this was a vote against any sort of elite at all, they have several more thinks coming - and I suspect quite soon.

Rain Sunderland voted for Leave despite having very, very little immigration. Areas with the most, in London, were more likely to vote Remain.

[Pettywoman]

My issue isn't that people are 'stipid' it's that they've been sold lies and misinformation. The campaigns were short, full of soundbites, mudslinging and bullshit. Even The Sun is back tracking about it's Leave claims.

Not everyone reads loads, the BBC in their quest for 'balance' were too scared to call people on outright lies. The press is so partisan you'll never get any sense from that.

[whiteDragon]

YABU. It's not IQ or stupidity.

It's lack of education about how out democracy actually works (and that's not just confined to less educated people IME), not teaching how to think beyond headlines, understand biases, and work out what isn't being said and analysis what the statistics actually mean.

Combine that with a right wing newspaper sector - who've spend decades demonising the EU often with untrue or misleading stories which have been mainly unchallenged as it sold paper only thing they cared about the result vast swaths of people are misinformed.

There is also a general lack of engagement with politics - I keep up via the media but it can feel very remote to my life and when it doesn't I feel powerless to affect changes I want.

Plus we don't always make rational decisions - we do go with our gut as other poster have pointed out - this is especially true when the "facts" are unclear or absent.

I don't want hurdles place in front of people to stop sections of society from voting - not least because it means in the future someone could manipulate this and disenfranchise any group they want - possibly a group I belong to. I also don't think any group would take it lying down.

[jennasmith951]

Too many people that have no idea what's going on have been allowed to vote. I would accept any point of view cause obviously everyone has the right to give their opinion, but if they don't have anything to base it on or have no idea about the EU at all? They should make people take an IQ test before voting...

[whiteDragon]

Or is it possible that different socio economic, political and regional groups within a country have very different experiences, wants, needs, hopes and aspirations.

^^ This is also very true.

Though I'm in south wales an area that does well from the EU - and it voted out so there must be other experiences to mine but I don't get why less money coming in to the area is a good thing I have to admit.

[whiteDragon]

they should make people take an IQ test before voting...

No one is sure what IQ actually measures other than being good at IQ tests.

Plus I've gone to university ( a nice red brick one with high entrance requirement so presumably people had high IQ) with people apparently unaware that you voted for the local MP not for the prime minster directly.

[LurkingHusband]

I said upthread (and stand by it) that the UK seems to have bred a peculiar "anti-intellectual" culture, where learning, knowledge and intelligence - and those that aspire to it - are viewed with deep suspicion.

There was a wonderful moment during the miners strike - it may havce been Question Time - where an American lady berated Arthur Scargill for his insistence that the sons of miners should have the chance to be miners.

"Why do you insist your children have to be miners ?" she said. "Why not doctors, or scientists, or astronauts". It was (to my mind) a telling clash of cultures.

[roundaboutthetown]

I agree - "the people" en masse are not stupid, en masse they are of average intelligence... it's just that those who are leading them and selling them the news are manipulative, egotistical, status-obsessed bastards who would happily appeal to people's hopes, fears and desires in order to get votes or money off them but who will then only carry out what is in their personal self-interest once the vote is won. Whatever way people voted in this referendum, the result was always going to be that the current UK and world elite then works out how to stay on top and retain their personal wealth.

[OurBlanche]

It was (to my mind) a telling clash of cultures. Yes, given the times, she really did miss the point, didn't she?

[roundaboutthetown]

At least the EU attempted to prevent naked self-interest, by requiring 28 countries to make compromises and agreements together that were not always in their personal self-interest. I find it bizarre that people really did buy into the notion that entirely unelected, undemocratic people in Brussels were coming up with bizarre and random rules and regulations for the fun of it.