Democracy 'Intelligent' people vs 'stupid' people

[TinnTinn]

Some people are too stupid to be allowed to vote. I've been hearing a lot of this since the referendum.

Should this come into democracy? Or is it possible that different socio economic, political and regional groups within a country have very different experiences, wants, needs, hopes and aspirations. Chances are these will differ from other groups of people. Does this somehow invalidate their views?

[minijoeyjojo]

Whilst I absolutely believe that everyone has the right to vote, I can understand the exasperation some are feeling with the number of people who have voted without any understanding of the situation. Of course that doesn't mean that we should restrict votes, absolutely not. However in a situation where the economic consequences are so devastating and wide reaching and the situation incredibly complex, even for the best economist, I think it should never have been put to a vote in this manner.

[Natsku]

Everyone should have the right to vote, no matter how stupid or intelligent they are but issues of such hug importance and complexity should never be put to a popular vote. We vote in representatives for a reason - to represent us as they, the ones who should be knowledgeable enough, makes the important decisions.

[LaurieMarlow]

No strings to democracy. That's not the deal.

However, given the complexity of the debate, the sensationalist media, the scope of the implications and the strong emotions it was always going to evoke, it was not a suitable topic for a referendum.

[user1465823522]

Some people are too stupid to be allowed to vote. I've been hearing a lot of this since the referendum.

Should this come into democracy? Or is it possible that different socio economic, political and regional groups within a country have very different experiences, wants, needs, hopes and aspirations. Chances are these will differ from other groups of people. Does this somehow invalidate their views?

Personally I think that if you don;t understand the issues and the politics and implications surrounding the outcome then you should not get a say.

[CoteDAzur]

" I don't think the public had enough actual facts (there weren't many!) on either side in the referendum"

Public had loads of actual facts. Economists, Bank of England, business people came up and said exactly what was going to happen if UK left the EU.

They were branded "Project Fear" and dismissed.

It's very hard to educate someone who doesn't have the minimum base required to distinguish between credible information and rubbish.

[YourPerception]

Yes some are the pigs in Animal farm that think "some are more equal"

[roundaboutthetown]

Everyone should be entitled to vote. What shouldn't be allowed is media and politicians lying to and manipulating people because they think they are so bloody clever. Even intelligent people can't vote confidently on the back of so many lies. It's not democracy if you aren't given access to the truth and if people dress opinion up as fact.

[Lweji]

What shouldn't be allowed is media and politicians lying to and manipulating people because they think they are so bloody clever.

I'll add with impunity.

[cdtaylornats]

Sixteen and Seventeen year olds should have been allowed to vote, it is their future.

I was against the 16/17 vote in the Scottish Referendum and then I spoke to a few and I changed my viewpoint. Many of them were actually interested in the arguments and capable of checking information out for themselves. I found the youngsters far more considerate of facts than many of the adults who seemed to fall into voting because they loved/hated the SNP.

Personally I think the SNP miscalculated and thought the vast majority of young people would be pro-independence.

[LurkingHusband]

It's very hard to educate someone who doesn't want to be educated. It started in school, and carried on.

Seems particularly rife in the UK, where there's always been a slight suspicion of appearing "clever".

[BreconBeBuggered]

I know politically engaged people who thought long and hard about the issues involved before voting Leave. Their reasoning was different from mine, but their decision wasn't down to stupidity.
I can't help wondering what the result would have been if huge sections of the population who don't normally bother to vote hadn't been whipped into a misguided fervour about independence and taking our country back. I voted at 9am last Thursday, and by that time the number of names crossed off the voters list at the polling station was more than had voted by the evening in the last two sets of elections. And (this is bad) some murky part of me resents that my consistent, conscientious voting habits don't make my vote count for anything more than one that's pretty much being cast as Rupert Murdoch's mindless proxy.
I'm talking about people in my own neighbourhood here. I can't justify feeling this way, so flame on.

[roundaboutthetown]

There were plenty of intelligent people behind the Leave Campaign. I think most massive fuck ups in history were committed by supposedly intelligent, manipulative people. Intelligence is not the same thing as being good or being right. Intelligent people frequently disagree with each other.

[Justanotherlurker]

My 15yo DD showed me this on her instagram; top Google searches the DAY AFTER the referendum were 'what happens if we leave the EU ' followed closely by 'what is the EU'. MN is definately not representative of a large number of the electorate, sadly

Then you and your daughter need to be more informed and do some proper research....

steve-patterson.com/less-than-1000-brits-googled-what-is-the-eu-after-referendum/

[SeekEveryEveryKnownHidingPlace]

Boris Johnson isn't stupid - just evil.

I wish there was some way to encourage a sense that the right to vote comes with the responsibility to inform yourself, but really, how could you police that? There are some astoundingly stupid Leave voters, here and elsewhere - more worrying, I think, is this endemic sense at the moment that you mustn't overthink - we must all now stop thinking and worrying and 'roll our sleeves up'; experts don't know anything; degrees don't mean anything; racism must be listened to carefully and accorded the same respect we would accord to a reasonable and logical viewpoint, otherwise we'll get protest-voted out of the things that matter and it'll be our fault for 'not listening'.

The ironic thing to me is that the idea that 'we' should have listened and not snobbishly dismissed racism is that it actually sets up more of an 'us' and 'them' dynamic that otherwise!

[howabout]

Mine 2 have just been through 2 years of compulsory Modern studies in Scotland. They were still struggling to understand the difference between an MP, an MSP and an MEP.

Most politicians and media commentators in Brexit/Remain and in Scotland/UK/Europe seem pretty equivocal on what Brexit actually means now it has been voted for. Just like Scottish Independence I believe it is centrally a heart rather than head decision. The nature of economic and diplomatic ties can be negotiated whatever the share of sovereignty. As such it has very little to do with intellect or economics.

[howabout]

Mine should be my (I have 2 teenagers).

[Itinerary]

Everyone should have a vote. Yes to the Animal Farm analogy.

I suppose people have got used to distant elites (and by I mean those with power/money rather than merit) and sadly are following their example. People have got used to being guided and seem to want to be spoon-fed one biased, official view.

"It's not democracy if you aren't given access to the truth and if people dress opinion up as fact."

Yes it is. Whose "truth" would you put forward? The government's £9 million propaganda leaflet? I'm sure they'd argue it was true. Those who don't see it that way are not unintelligent, it means they've come to a different conclusion. Looking at things from various angles is beneficial, and just because your opinion is that the economy/straight bananas/stopping BoJo is top priority doesn't mean it's someone else's.

Politicians make claims and are then asked to back them up. If they can't, they get found out. Claiming there's only one official version of "the truth" is fundamentalist and dangerous.

[PausingFlatly]

Has to be one person, one vote. Every other way madness lies.

But all this, "Oh the facts weren't available..." I have seen multiple posts on here leading up to Thursday where the poster dissed the use of facts at all, and stated that their emotions were more important.

And emotions are very easy to manipulate.

[Highlandfling80]

Dd in year 7 does study it and we are not in Scotland. I and my parents never did. (Maybe that's where the problem lies) I think her contemporaries were better informed. They even had a mini debate and referendum at Guides. Remain won by a massive majority btw.

[user1465823522]

My nine year old informed us that we were leaving the Federation and Bruce Banner was going to be our new leader.

Kinda glad she didn't get a vote, although her world is clearly more fun than the real one.

[PausingFlatly]

There's an interesting thread by a poster from Ireland: Irish POV: you needed a referendum commission

"In Ireland for referendums we have a referendum commission. They are a body responsible for producing unbiased info for both sides in a referendum. They also can force sides to stop campaigning on lies e.g. The 350 million"

According to that thread, in Ireland, you can't have the situation like some 80% of news headlines being pro-OneSide, as just happened here. The commission forces both sides to be published 50/50.

[Marynary]

I think that everyone should vote for the party they want to make the decisions. The actual decisions need to be made by people who make the effort to learn and assimilate the facts though. This referendum has demonstrated that many members of the public (including many who consider themselves to be intelligent) are just not up to it.

[MephistophelesApprentice]

Nah, sod it. This assumption that universal suffrage is the only possible democratic version is demonstrably worthless. Look at us and Brexit; America and Trump, Germany in '33.

Go for the Heinlein approach: No vote without national service. If you don't do three years as a soldier or a nurse (or as support personnel for those who are physically unable to perform in these roles), no vote for you.

[sorenofthejnaii]

Does being informed really help? This was an interesting programme on R4 - how we make decisions. Often we make the decisions and then look for the information to help us validate it.

It's hard to get unbiased, impartial, decision changing information.

www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b07ffxsw

[StrictlyMumDancing]

Stupid people should have just as much right to vote as intelligent people and moderately intelligent etc etc. Intelligent people though have a duty to ensure that people's stupidity isn't used against them and their fears played upon, so maybe these intelligent people would do better campaigning for a change in politics rather than berating those who they consider stupid.