Democracy 'Intelligent' people vs 'stupid' people

[TinnTinn]

Some people are too stupid to be allowed to vote. I've been hearing a lot of this since the referendum.

Should this come into democracy? Or is it possible that different socio economic, political and regional groups within a country have very different experiences, wants, needs, hopes and aspirations. Chances are these will differ from other groups of people. Does this somehow invalidate their views?

Not Rtft, was a Remain voter. Still think it is a massive mistake to leave. When people are angry they do foolish things that are harmful to themselves and others. We can dwell on the foolishness (and I do) and/or we can look at why they were angry. Whoever is the next PM they will need to do this as a matter of urgency.

Well, you'd think, wouldn't you. Instead all they will care about is saving the Tory party for the next election.

Fiddling while Rome burns springs to mind (I'm sure Boris would appreciate that allusion too ).

Sure, there are a lot of stupid, willfully ignorant people.

But the bigger problem was highly intelligent people with the most prestigious education imaginable who did incredibly foolish things. Bloody Stupid Johnson, no plans for what do do if he won, clearly didn't mean to. David C, thought he'd do something like Major's 'put up or shut' up - but gambled the future of the whole country not just his own position.

Thank you for highlighting that since 1066, universal suffrage has only covered 88 years.

Timeline of Womens' Suffrage

THAT IS THE EXACT PROBLEM, FFS! THEY NEEDED TO UNDERSTAND THAT BEFORE THE VOTE NOT AFTER

I did a lot of research before my vote - both benefits and negatives for both sides .

I still wanted to understand how much of a complete fuck up the vote was after - to make sure I understood all the implications of the vote out - which is hard as there isn't one vote out vision.

I don't understand why you feel the need to sneer at people seeking further information - or assume they aren't starting from what they know to double check - see if there are any outs or work around.

I voted in as EU funds a lot of STEM research - I know a lot of people in this field. Now we have voted out - unexpectedly is it really wrong to figure out the implications about how things will work especially as our main wage earner is involved in seeking funding? What time lines they have what might happen what the probable course of action are?

Once the out vote came in - situations become very real for a lot of people - seeking further information about it seems very sensible to me.

I voted in as EU funds a lot of STEM research

Wan't my only reason for voting to remain - actually avoiding the uncertainly hitting the economy and being aware of how much EU funding the are I live in gets were higher but I didn't need to research those aspects.

I've heard the thick/racist/shouldn't be allowed to vote comments in real life.

If challenged, I've no doubt they would've been explained away as being borne of frustration, or not serious, but I think the tone reveals worrying class contempt.

(Apologies, haven't properly rtft yet.)

Also, I'm not convinced that all the 'intelligent' Remainers of my acquaintance fully grasp the complexity of the specific economic arguments and are as guilty of following opinion for broad ideological reasons as the people they're angry with.

Also, I'm not convinced that all the 'intelligent' Remainers of my acquaintance fully grasp the complexity of the specific economic arguments and are as guilty of following opinion for broad ideological reasons as the people they're angry with.

Yes. But when the choice is between no immediate change, and universally predicted disruption (even the leave campaign said there would be) then there is an underlying instinct of self preservation which works towards "no change".

Self-preservation, in any situation is hardly unintelligent.

No, you're quite right, it isn't.

Unfortunately, for many, lack of trust (that successive governments have had their back, or that there is space in public discourse for their concerns) seems to have clouded the matter.

I feel fortunate to be in a position where self preservation and no immediate change coincide.

clearly coincide

Self-preservation, in any situation is hardly unintelligent.

All animals have a self-preservation instinct. Humans are different because we can also make moral choices with the option of altruism. Yes, anyone can choose to opt for what's best for themselves. That's presumably why a survey showed that just £25 could swing people's vote if offered! But what about thinking of others, and making sacrifices for what you believe is the common good, or future generations?

"I've heard the thick/racist/shouldn't be allowed to vote comments in real life. If challenged, I've no doubt they would've been explained away as being borne of frustration, or not serious, but I think the tone reveals worrying class contempt."

I don't find being thick or being racist to be predictive of class. There are strong anti-racist working-class movements, like the trade unions. And no shortage of thick racists amid the naice middle classes.

There's some correlation between being not bright and ending up at the bottom of the economic heap if you're not protected by family money. But I don't find it works the other way: if family set you up, you can be both none-too-bright and well off.

If anything, this makes me more committed to one person, one vote.

Of course it isn't predictive.

I was talking about the tone of the comments I have heard.

But why are you saying it's "class contempt"? Which class are you identifying racism with?

Or maybe you meant something different from class?

I'm just picking up on this because it reminds me of a phenomenon I've sometimes seen, that goes something like this.

Poster A: I don't think much of people who don't wash their hands after the loo (say).
Poster B: OMG, just shows how contemptuous you really are of the working classes! You caaah!

It's B who identifies not washing hands as working class, and is merrily projecting her beliefs onto A. While working herself into a righteous froth at A... who doesn't actually hold these beliefs.

This sleight of opinion annoys me. But it might not be what's going on here, which is why I'm asking.