Are there are some very sore losers after the EU Ref result?

[brodchengretchen]

Should we now challenge parliamentary elections too if we don't like the result on the basis that some people are too lower class/poor/stupid to make a proper first time vote?

Or could that be a tad arrogant and patronising to the the section of the electorate that cast their vote and won, 'ignorant numpties' or not?

We might be a disaster for 20 years? Well thats a generation of people who will have a disasterous main part of their life

but a generation of people have already suffered here and across the EU.

do they matter?

they are desperate, it cant get any more worse for them. why on earth do you think they voted? Easy to say - thick, chavs, un educated, stupid, turkeys voting for christmas.

what about simply desperate in their every day lives and have had enough.

amazes me none of this vitriol is directed to labour who didn't follow Germany lead on workers rights.
no vitriol to the EU who gave Cameron nothing to apease us with.
nothing to the politicians who ignored over and over and over again the cry for help from people.

That's a rubbish point to make, their lives are difficult because of domestic decisions not EU. It wasn't a protest at the government it was a vote on membership of the EU.

When Nissan leaves Sunderland, when Siemans don't invest in Hull, when banks move to other locations within the EU, their lives will be blighted further as they will when public services are slashed again and again because of the fall in taxes.

The EU gave Cameron a fair amount, what you fail to recgonise is the EU has given Britain so many exceptions and opt outs already.

So essentially pleading with me to recognise that the "protest" vote people are needed to be listened to, I agree, but from National Government. A national government will be in power very soon that will take non of their interests to heart and be far more neo liberal than the current.

It is easy to dismiss a protest vote in a referendum where each vote counted, and one where people have voted on national issues not EU ones, because it demosntrates a fundamental lack of understanding of what the vote was about.

I'm from one of those areas, I understand their issues. But it isn't to do with immigration ( there is a very low level in the North East) it isn't to do with the EU. Its to do with globalisation, the decline of industry and the fact that Keynesian economics has largely been abandoned by most of the governments over the last 37 years. The Labour government did some things, but of the last 37 years the Tories have been in power for 34 of them and the largest amount of responsibility, having been in control for the largest amount of time, lies at their door. Not at that of the EU which was one of the largest funders of these deprived areas.

*they are desperate, it cant get any more worse for them. why on earth do you think they voted? Easy to say - thick, chavs, un educated, stupid, turkeys voting for christmas.

what about simply desperate in their every day lives and have had enough.*

Had enough OF WHAT????

They voted thinking things will happen that are not going to happen!!!

Leaving the EU won't get them more jobs, it will cause higher unemployement. Not according to me. Not according to the remain camp. According to every single economist or anyone remotely qualified to make a study or speculation on it.

They won't get a stronger NHS. A stronger NHS can come from one thing - a stronger economy with more money to put into the pot. This will have the opposite effect.

Less immigration? Yes, while we won't directly get that from leaving the EU - we will probably get it when no one wants to come here anymore because we have 50% unemployment.

It doesn't really get those people, the vast majority of the ones who voted out any of the things they believed it would get them, and I am amazed you're not infuriated by that.

People choosing to leave the EU is democracy. Their choice is democratic. But the means? Farage's Nazi posters of immigrants standing in a thick line? Posters saying people were coming for our jobs?

How can anyone say it is a fantasy or stretch of the imagination to believe this will jeopardise he peace in Europe? It was 1945 when we had the last world war. 1950s when we had the cold war. this is not ancient history. this is yesterday. Within the times of our parents.

Can you not grasp that the right wing, once it sweeps it's way across Europe and "superpowers" begin developing between poor, eastern block countries that we stand a real chance of going back to the days without peace?

is this a gamble you really wanted for your kids? Grandkids?

The EU membership was extensively studied for it;'s effectiveness independently - the most comprehensive study in history carried out over a very long period and looking at how our membership affected every single sector of our economy. The public were questioned even And the report concluded unanimously that the EU was a generally positive thing.

So what, specifically, did "they" get sick of, and how, specifically does leaving the EU change those things?

I spoke to a woman today who told me she voted out of the EU because her region did not get mentioned enough on the fucking weather report. I am not making that up.

There's no answers to any of these questions. It was just all about sticking two fingers up at the wrong people, and you were manipulated into doing that my a fanatic - a joke of a man - who has been fighting for 17 years to achieve this for his own ends - and who has since admitted everything he promised you was a lie.

General elections are what we use to vote in who runs the country, decides taxation, spending.

This was the single most important vote of our lifetimes, and we voted the wrong way.

But Rain, what has this vote achieved that will help people? I've seen some angry posts saying that they have nothing to lose and all "Hah! NOW you notice me!"

It's like if you have a sore left toe, so you take a sledgehammer and smash your right arm to a pulp. The original grievance is a valid one, but the response is disproportionate, incorrectly directed and a grotesque act of self-harm.

If Leavers are right, in 10-20 years, everything will turn out hunky-dory. Surely, if anybody can't afford to experience 10-20 years of austerity-squared and social disintegration, it is the poorest and most disadvantaged people.

Or what fox and janie said

Well said small fox. Yes people are desperate but they have voted to reject the help they were actually getting. Yes, we pay for EU membership but I feel it was worth it to repair some of the considerable damage that successive Tory governments have wrought on deprived areas.

Excellent points. Far better put than I could.

I think I might have to stop discussing this.

Essentially I feel a mass deception has taken place and people have been duped into voting for something against their own interests by a group of people who wish to exploit the economic chaos and newly freed from EU legislation will be abel to do so.

Just like what will happen with Trump in the US.

We are entering a dark era, far darker than any of the fantasies promoted by the brexiters on here.

Well said Smallfox

I too have wanted to ask Leave voters for a real, tangible way their lives will improve with Brexit. Not the rhetorical land of milk and honey that was promised, but actual day to day ways it will make things better for them personally.

I am not trying to be goady. I am genuinely looking for definable, measurable positives that may come out of the current clusterfuck. I am getting sick of the offensive "sore losers" shtick however. This is not a fucking game of Monopoly (or maybe it is for the powers that be!). This is going to affect our country for generations, and it is going ahead in spite of the fact that half the country don't want it too!! I think we're allowed to be a little pissed off!?

I agree Sierra.

So far most leavers responding to me tell me to not be a sore loser, or to accept "we won" and get on with it. If they had stronger arguments I'd find it easier.

They are largely unable to give me a single, well reasoned argument for how their lives are going to be better day to day in exchange for the cost / risk.

I am pissed off they gambled with my future, and those of my kids and grandkids and that many of them did it because they were tricked.

Very eloquent points thank you so much for posting people. I agree with janie'and fox. I would see this from within the EU not as an outsider.

My mother is very comfortably off and voted out "to get our country back". She's a Daily Telegraph and weekend Mail reader and thinks Boris is "wonderful" (cue gooey eyes) . She is happy about the potential division of the U.K. as we would be better off without Scotland.

She sent me a jubilant text on Thursday - as I obviously would think like her (she being a narcissist). I sent her a curt reply. FGS DH is French so DD is dual (to her DH is inferior).

I really don't understand how she is justifying her arguments to herself being an avid Royal fan. Surely the Queen would be devastated should this vote cause the break up of the U.K. and dissolve the NI peace agreement.

The only positive I have heard is that the UK (if union survives) will be more attractive to overseas visitors and us Brit's will holiday in the UK more. We won't be able to afford to go overseas with needing new passports and lousy exchange rates.

So not really much of a positive? Need more

Me too. Ironically thus year is the 1St year we could afford to go overseas and paid out for 5 passports. Really great Rockne they will be invalid two years down the line and much of the flight delay protection we get will go.
But that is not the reason why I am sad. We can still afford to tide out this storm. Many more won't. I do wonder if my sister really considered her son and grandsons future who have just moved into a new home.

stupid auto-correct.

Obviously not a leaver.

How can we make sure next time that voters really do know what they are voting for

For a democratic vote by the people to have true democratic value...the people voting must have the facts they needed to make the decision.

If even 10% of those who voted to exit did so to get £350 million for their NHS or to block immigration then democracy has failed us because they were tricked.

I am not sure of the answer, it is very difficult to police "lies" told during political propoganda, and it is very difficult also (no offence here) because certain people are simply not capable of understanding the facts even if they are presented so they will vote off a soundbite rather than off what is best for them.

What the Daily Mail and Sun print is scary to me.

What I would like to see is an independent, non affiliated fact checking service but I fear the problem was that we did have that here - we had academics, economists, everyone of any reliable source speaking up but people did not want to listen because they felt the "elite" and the "educated" were their enemy and were somehow trying to trick them.

I fear, very sadly, that stuff like this just happens and people revolt in ways that are not in their own best interests. It is easy to manipulate people when they have just had enough if how things are.

I don't blame the Brexiters for this - I think it is just what happens when government after government have screwed us over and over again. I am hoping /. praying for someone to come along and give us all some hope again.

I blame the brexiteers for this, the constant refrains on here and from those in public of "project fear" and deinigrating independent experts whilst uttering soothing platitudes brought us to this.

Having the main part of the news media onside didn't harm them either.

"Project fear" has simply become "reporting the news" hasn't it??

Exactly.

Now where is Springing into action who shouted it at every remainer with concern.

It's not even all about the economic fallout for me
It's also about the increase in racist and xenophobic hate crime...already!
It's also about how the UK has lost all respect on the global stage
It's also about how stupid and ignorant we must look to the rest of the world...how many leave voters didn't even understand the most basic concepts of what they were voting for, or rather against?
I suppose it's come as a shock to me to see my country for what it is...a nation of chest beating, uneducated xenophobes.
The thin veneer of respectability is gone. Forever, I think.
I'm so so sad
I feel utterly bereft.
All these "disaffected" voters will give us the Most right wing govt since before the Second World War and no, the parallels to the situation in europe prior to the outbreak of WW11 haven't escaped me
😞

I had a revealing conversation today triggered by the meme on FB which has the pictures of the DDay beaches and war graves followed by the 'tell me again how the younger generation were failed by the older one'.
I just said I couldn't stand by and let that slide. How ironic it was that they died fighting Hitler, who in fact stood for the sort of racial hatred that we are seeing on the rise, that I doubted they would be that proud of what was going on at the moment.
She said: What's going on at the moment? What do you mean?
She has not listened to the news since she heard the vote. She heard 'We won' and stopped listening. She had no idea that any racist attacks had taken place, she has managed to miss or ignore all the news about the market...
She's a nice person, friendly, is there when you need her - but she isn't even remotely interested in what is going on behind her immediate family. Does she regret anything? Nope. Because her side won. And she is not aware of anything aside from that.
She voted because she was worried about the strain on services due to all the immigrants. We have no ethnic diversity in our village, or school. Anything I said she said things like ''Oh, I don't understand things like this, I just know we can't fit any more people in the country.'

I found it so depressing. It's people like that that Leave relied on. And she's not well off, so when petrol goes up, or jobs start to go, she will be one of the first to struggle. She played in to their hands by not having any interest, by believing what they said without question, the experts didn't talk in a way she understood, so she's been used to achieve BoJo and Farages political ambitions. And at the moment, she can't see any down sides, she's just happy to be on the winning side. Because there will be fewer people in the country.

baby That is just so depressing

It's people like that that Leave relied on. And she's not well off, so when petrol goes up, or jobs start to go, she will be one of the first to struggle.

Same here but with leavers in family, they voted tory last time as well complain about DLA and benefit cuts - turkeys voting for xmas :(