Why I Voted to Leave the EU

[Asprilla11]

So I recently started a thread about the misconceptions many remain voters may have about why people voted leave. I argued that there were many reasons other than immigration and that the majority voted fully understanding what the outcome would mean.

On that thread and many more on MN the remain voters keep asking us WHY we voted and are annoyed when we don't answer in full, they forget that since the result SOME have acted in an aggressive and belittling manner towards us, so why would we feel engaged to reply? Many leave voters have had to spend time defending themselves because we have all been branded thick and racist. We are more than aware some racist people voted to leave in order to pursue their disgusting agenda, most leave voters don't want to be associated with those people and we condemn their stance.

I am willing to say my reasons why I voted leave, even if it means I am attacked for doing so.

EU Commissioners

They are not democratically elected (by EU Citizens) and the President has the final say on any candidate that a member state has put forward. Technically they are accountable to the European Parliament by the fact that the Parliament is able to force the entire Commission to resign through a vote of no confidence. However the Parliament has never done this, but have threatened to do it once. It also needs 2/3 of the Parliament to vote and agree on the reason for the no confidence vote. We can elect MEP's but they have little power over the commissioners.

The commissioners are paid nearly £200,000 per year (some more) and also get generous allowances, benefits and a very good pension. I do not believe the current commission deserve that level of pay, they simply have not earned it, I believe they put their own self interests above EU citizens and I believe they are morally and financially corrupt. If they were worth the salary then the amount would be fine, I just don't think they currently are.

EU Economy

There is very little growth and it is only going to get worse if the Eurozone fully collapses which I feel is a real possibility. Struggling EU nations such as Greece, Spain, Portugal and Italy are in massive debt, suffering with austerity and massive youth unemployment. I don't believe many of the of the other EU nations care about this, as long as the wealth benefits their country then they will pay lip service to those who are less fortunate. I also believe a lot of the benefits of the EU economy and the trade it brings also benefits the wealthier members of society more than the poor, in all of the EU member states.

If the EU had showed they would reform and a new fairer commission was set up which looked at making deals fairer for all EU member states and also looked at immigration in depth (not necessarily changing it) then I would have voted remain without a second thought. However the commission proved what an arrogant bunch they are even before Cameron went to get his 'deal', they won't reform, they don't want to and they don't care who knows it.

UK Economy

The UK will be 6-8 billion pounds better off after no longer paying the EU membership fee, even after the grants we used to receive are taken in to account. However there were several studies that pointed out that the loss in trade will far outweigh the savings from leaving the EU and we will actually be worse off financially. I didn't doubt some of the facts in those studies and I could see how they came to their conclusions, however even those studies have to admit they can't say for certain because nobody knows how quickly we will get new trade agreements with EU member states and how favorably they will be. Additionally although EU membership did not prevent trade deals with the commonwealth and other countries, it did reduce the need and the imagination to. It is only when those deals are in place can you truly say leaving the EU has left us worse or better off. In the short-term we will be worse off, I knew that risk prior to voting.

As a Labour supporter and also someone who is very distrusting of the current Tory Government I can hand on heart easily say that not a single thing Farage, Gove, Johnson and Duncan Smith said I believed at face value. In fact I consider Gove as one of the worst Education ministers ever and IDS I hold responsible for the suicide of some disabled benefit claimants, such an odious man. So believe me the leave MP's definitely didn't impress or influence me!

I did my own research which I always do whenever the Government (any party) state things as 'facts'. I knew the £350 million claim would be wrong (which remain supporters kept shouting was lies) however I also knew the Governments claim that every household in the UK would be £4300 worse off was also wrong, but do you get the leave voters shouting lies? Both sides lied, that is a fact!

Since the crash in 2008 many, many people in the UK (not just the British) have not seen any improvement in their wages or living standards. They have borne the brunt of austerity more than the people who could afford to. The 5th biggest economy in the world and an economy that has recovered and grown still has not brought any benefits to the poor and working class. They didn't consider how leaving the EU would affect their ISA's, Savings, Stocks and Shares because they don't have any! They didn't think about if their child could go to Uni because they would never have been able to afford that anyway. The poor and working class in the UK and the EU don't care if they are a bit worse off for a few more years, they are sick of the wealth that is generated only benefiting the wealthy, this was their chance to be heard.

Immigration

I wasn't going to mention this as it did not play much of a part (if any) in my decision and I also feel like as a leave supporter I have to keep defending myself whenever the word immigration is mentioned, simply because the remain voters keep saying we are all racist.

But here goes.

I worked in the Civil Service from the age of 19 for 15 years. I worked with people of all ages, all religions, all nationalities, LGBT and disabled people too. I matured as an adult in this environment and it undoubtedly made my life richer. I was also a Union Rep and defended colleagues in disciplinary, poor performance/attendance, diversity and disabilities (covered by the Equality Act 2010) meetings and hearings , both british and non-british. Since I left I have kept in touch with former colleagues who are now lifelong friends, some are British, some aren't, it wasn't a factor in whether we became friends or not.

I only mention all of that simply because a lot of remain voters think we have no positive outlook on immigrants and we don't mix in a multi-cultural society. They also think we don't understand the positive impact on the economy migrants (EU and non-EU) have. But actually most leave voters do, immigrants pay far more in to the system than they take out in benefits, that's a long standing, well known fact. There are far more british people who falsely claim benefits compared to immigrants.

Unfortunately I will admit there are parts of society, some of which voted leave who don't understand these truths. Some through lack of education, some through lack of life experience with people of diverse backgrounds and some sadly who are racist. These are the people who already felt poor, cut-off and unheard. UKIP and other politicians preyed on those peoples fears and told them they could help fix their problems.

That is not however the majority of leave supporters, I truly believe that. Most leave supporters have had experiences like mine and we all have experienced nothing but positive things from working and living with immigrants, EU and non-EU.

If the EU could have done one thing with immigration then I wish it gave all EU member states the ability to put a temporary block or cap on EU migration. I say this for the simple fact that the UK and other countries don't have the housing, schools and hospitals to cope with the current UK (not british) population growth, we simply aren't building enough of anything. When you add over 300,000 immigrants to that population growth you start to see the strain it creates.

I think the UK can cope with immigration well above 200,000, when it has the infrastructure in place, until then a temporary reduction or block until the work is done would be a useful tool to have. Alternatively you could look at using builders from the EU countries who could then come and work on those very buildings that are needed.

Finally on immigration, I think Governments in all EU countries need to act more responsibly on where and how immigrants are placed in to communities. Dumping some of the poorest immigrants in the poorest parts of the UK next to communities who are experiencing crime, unemployment and disillusionment with life in general and their prospects, is a disaster waiting to happen, especially when some of those people are known racists.

UK employers, EU employers and landlords in and out of the EU also need to be challenged more on their blatant exploitation of immigrants.

Ok flame away!

Good post OP.

It outlines clearly your reasons for voting the way you did for those who are genuinely interested in reading a different point of view.

GreeninshMe

But half of it debunked in posts under it.

Voting on the same side as David Cameron, head of the 'greedy party', was a first for many remainers. They didn't vote for his austerity policies, or refusal to tax corporations or higher earners in order to release funds for services such as the NHS. They didn't vote for a politician who was actively diminishing our status in Europe. They didn't vote for a party that is inherently only interested in perpetuating its control by changing constituency boundaries. Widening the gap between rich and poor so that voters increasingly became disenfranchised. A small, extremist wing of 'the greedy party' have spent decades spouting anti-Europe nonsense about bendy cucumbers and how 'they control us'. Those who 'did their research' ignored this crap. Did people vote leave because they thought the 'greedy party' would suffer? Did it have ANYTHING to do with the EU?

I'm truly shocked about some of the statements like "If I was the next leader, I would probably go for interim membership of the EEA to buy time"… So like Switzerland or Norway? Who pay the same as we do now (no savings to be made there), who have to abide by EU-made laws and standards, who have no passport checks (they had to join Schengen), who have no Commissioners or representatives so 'no control' at all? Britain IS already part of the EEA, is NOT part of Schengen, and has 73 MEPs. If the UK has no influence (only 35% voted in European elections), whose fault is that?

citroenpresse - so are you saying that some Remainers voted conservative for the first time just to get away from the alternatives, even though they disagreed with the actual things the Tories were planning to do? Oh the irony - exactly the same philosophy as those who voted leave just to get away from the alternative.

And for the day that's in it. John Kipling was dead a few months by the time the Somme rolled around, but I think this says so much for our times too.

"If any question why we died,
Tell them, because our fathers lied."

I just hope there won't be more young lost to petty European squabbles in the years ahead.

roundaboutthetown Am confused by your question. Remainers didn't 'vote Conservative'. They voted to Remain in the EU. I've never voted Tory in my life and never will. I simply can't understand why people believe that British crises are down to the EU and not the policies of their national government. Cameron was too spineless to stand up to the 'Leavers' in the Tory party and too arrogant and out of touch with RL to understand what the consequences of a referendum might be. Why would the British people commit economic suicide? Of course they'll vote remain. They're not going to fall for a pack of lies about the 'savings' we can make or that the EU will be so desperate to keep us we'll get a fabulous trading deal without shouldering any of our responsibilities as a global player. The referendum vote has held up a mirror to anger and frustrations of many people who feel powerless. Nothing to do with the EU at all.

A vote for Remain was FOR the EU. I'm glad we aren't in the Eurozone or Schengen and would certainly vote against either of those things happening. I'm 10000% certain there will never be 'an EU army' or that Turkey will be joining the EU any time soon. I want to have rights that protect me FROM the 'greedy party'. A remain vote is one for democracy (even if that sadly means you get Nigel Farage in Brussels because he certainly knows how to work the system). I'm proud to be a European (and being 50% Irish, fully intend to stay that way). But weirdly, yes, that does mean being on the 'same side' as Cameron for once.

Ah, citroenpresse, I thought you were responding to alreadytaken's argument that many remainers voted conservative in the last election and by doing this thereby agreed to the ridiculous referendum taking place, as Cameron said he would hold one, as well as lots of austerity. Or at least, that's what I took her to mean, as nothing else made sense, given that the leave campaigners were predominantly conservatives, whereas trade unions, labour (officially), the Green Party, the SNP, etc, wanted us to vote remain.

I think the only reason the ridiculous referendum was in the manifesto in the first place had very little to do with Tory voters (of whom I'm sure a solid proportion must have voted remain) and everything to do with pacifying fanatical Eurosceptics who probably said if you don't do this, even more Tory voters will switch to UKIP.

Or Boris will become leader. Either or both of those.

Boris wasn't pro leave until the last second, though, so it wasn't that. Maybe it was the fear that Gove would stand for the leadership instead - the man who didn't listen to the education experts, either. He always did protest too much... and always came across as having the makings of a Fascist dictator in him. Never compromised, never respected other points of view, walked all over or stabbed in the back anyone who got in his way, and said what people wanted to hear right up to the point when he'd gained control over them...

Dave (who secretly wanted to leave but campaigned for remain) was scared of Boris (who campaigned for leave but is a remanian) and even MORE scared of Nigel (so agreed to include the referendum in the Tory manifesto). So now we have a race between Theresa (who said she was remain but will be seeing through BREXIT) and Michael (who has stabbed both Dave and Boris in the front and as you say, is appalling in every way).

70% of the remainers I know are normally tory voters.

Hopefully not any more...

The Guardian picked up a council election yesterday with a 27 percent swing to libdem....

citroenpresse Please don't make the mistake of thinking that anti-EU means anti-Europe. The EU is hardly making a secret of its intentions to create closer ties amongst its member states. To what extent they succeed is not clear, but certainly what was voted for in 1975 is not what we ended up with, so I hardly think it's safe to assume that we would not have got in deeper.

I'm so tired of reading stuff about the EU as if it is already some superstate with one voice. Yes, some member states want to create closer ties (Leave campaigner Gisela Stuart has voted for closer ties in the EU consistently in the Houses of Parliament), but lots more don't. Remember what Cameron negotiated before the referendum? “It is recognised that the United Kingdom ... is not committed to further political integration in the European Union ... References to ever-closer union do not apply to the United Kingdom.” But of course that's been abandoned now. In fact the UK had negotiated many favourable concessions over other Member States. Which they were quite annoyed about. We need to face the challenges of the 21st century, not 1975.

citroen We've had a Eurosceptic PM of late, despite his sudden U-turn since the campaigning began. That does not change the EU's intentions, and would not have stopped a future PM from taking a different course. If it wasn't for Gordon Brown we'd probably be in the Eurozone now. I think there are a lot of lessons to be learned from history actually. What people voted FOR in 1975 was not what they got. What 48% of people voted FOR in 2016 (and I very much doubt that many of them really considered what that was, judging by the baguette wavers in London today) would likely not be what they ended up with in time either.

and would not have stopped a future PM from taking a different course

Why would a UK PM do this without the clear support of the electorate? - the UK has never been gung-ho about Europe and has always veered more towards the pragmatic than the ideological argument for being in the EU.

The 52% still have no clue whether they voted for the Norway option or complete isolation. I think many of the 48% were voting for parliament to do their job and form policy about the EU themselves, not have a referendum that was more about Tory politics and sticking it to the man than the EU. If they weren't able to do that, they should atleast have been clear about what was really on offer and the real choices that would have to be made.

We also saw Boris's column on Monday. It's clear that the leaders of the Leave campaign did not have a plan

The fact that the UK electorate is prepared to push the blame for economic isolation, poverty and crises in health and social services onto 'THE EU' which they clearly know nothing about, instead of looking to Cameron and the tactics of self-serving Tory governments, is extraordinary waves baguette

EU commissioners are nominated by their countries - each member state has 1 commissioner and it is then up to the EU president to assign portfolios. If you don't like what your commissioner is doing tell your MEP and make it clear at general election time.

MEPs are elected by the electorate ie you and me. The EU is further accountable to their electorates through the elected heads of the member states having a role in the decision making process.

The President of the EU (Jucker) was proposed along with other candidates by the parties of the MEPs and voted into post by the MEPs and elected heads of states. He is theerfore accountable to the electorate.

I am not sure how you would like to see the system fairer, unless you would like a UK system whereby we have an unelected head of state, an unelected second chamber and a first past the post system where the outcome is influenced more by where the lines are drawn rather than what the electorate vote for.

Trade the UK was seen as an attractive door into the EU markets as their local emplloyment law is much less regulated than other EU states - so it is easier to sack workers, cheaper to pay for their basic rights and negotiate sweetheart tax deals. This made the UK a cheap place to access the EU markets. Outside the EU we are a small island with few natural resources. China has rowed back from trade negotiations, the US has said we can expect to be at the back of the queue - essentially we are in a veery weak negotiating position.

UK economy the areas that had a higher proportion of out voters are in the main net recipients of EU funding. The other hidden issue is the large amount of funding used for regeneration was on the basis of revolving loans - that money (billions) currently invested in Britain on this basis will require paying back. In addition many areas in receipt of growth fund money will no longer recieve it. These tend to be the less economically active areas of EU member states. Again this is billions. Why people would vote for a reduction in investment into their local area is frankly baffling to me. Lets hope that HM Treasury stop their lop sided investment into London & SE (London get 10 times more central funding per person than the rest of the UK)

On the stock markets - take a look at the investment comming out of teh stock of British based companies. Yes the FTSE100 is about where it was, but most of the companies listed on it are large multinationals - if you want stock in a blue chip co and you have dollars, yen or euros to spend the FTSE 100 is offering great value for money because the prices are in £. Unfortunately look a little closer at the companies that have a British market base and the picture is not so rosy.

Immigration the placement of refugees is a British decision - Local authorities were asked how many they could accommodate. The poorer bouroughs were the more generous.

This is why I challenge anyone who voted leave and will keep doing so - even the "researched" reasons being put forward are based on fiction, half truths and regurgitated lies.

Excellent Unescorted.

Farage getting booed in Brussels was obviously the big story but it was heartwarming to see British Commissioner Hill (who had a very choice finance portfolio - real influence there), get a standing ovation after announcing his resignation. Someone who had done his utmost to promote British interests within Europe in an honourable and democratic way who was hugely respected.

It is embarrasing that Farage was given oxygen to waste, yet most people will not have heard of Hill.