Why I Voted to Leave the EU

[Asprilla11]

So I recently started a thread about the misconceptions many remain voters may have about why people voted leave. I argued that there were many reasons other than immigration and that the majority voted fully understanding what the outcome would mean.

On that thread and many more on MN the remain voters keep asking us WHY we voted and are annoyed when we don't answer in full, they forget that since the result SOME have acted in an aggressive and belittling manner towards us, so why would we feel engaged to reply? Many leave voters have had to spend time defending themselves because we have all been branded thick and racist. We are more than aware some racist people voted to leave in order to pursue their disgusting agenda, most leave voters don't want to be associated with those people and we condemn their stance.

I am willing to say my reasons why I voted leave, even if it means I am attacked for doing so.

EU Commissioners

They are not democratically elected (by EU Citizens) and the President has the final say on any candidate that a member state has put forward. Technically they are accountable to the European Parliament by the fact that the Parliament is able to force the entire Commission to resign through a vote of no confidence. However the Parliament has never done this, but have threatened to do it once. It also needs 2/3 of the Parliament to vote and agree on the reason for the no confidence vote. We can elect MEP's but they have little power over the commissioners.

The commissioners are paid nearly £200,000 per year (some more) and also get generous allowances, benefits and a very good pension. I do not believe the current commission deserve that level of pay, they simply have not earned it, I believe they put their own self interests above EU citizens and I believe they are morally and financially corrupt. If they were worth the salary then the amount would be fine, I just don't think they currently are.

EU Economy

There is very little growth and it is only going to get worse if the Eurozone fully collapses which I feel is a real possibility. Struggling EU nations such as Greece, Spain, Portugal and Italy are in massive debt, suffering with austerity and massive youth unemployment. I don't believe many of the of the other EU nations care about this, as long as the wealth benefits their country then they will pay lip service to those who are less fortunate. I also believe a lot of the benefits of the EU economy and the trade it brings also benefits the wealthier members of society more than the poor, in all of the EU member states.

If the EU had showed they would reform and a new fairer commission was set up which looked at making deals fairer for all EU member states and also looked at immigration in depth (not necessarily changing it) then I would have voted remain without a second thought. However the commission proved what an arrogant bunch they are even before Cameron went to get his 'deal', they won't reform, they don't want to and they don't care who knows it.

UK Economy

The UK will be 6-8 billion pounds better off after no longer paying the EU membership fee, even after the grants we used to receive are taken in to account. However there were several studies that pointed out that the loss in trade will far outweigh the savings from leaving the EU and we will actually be worse off financially. I didn't doubt some of the facts in those studies and I could see how they came to their conclusions, however even those studies have to admit they can't say for certain because nobody knows how quickly we will get new trade agreements with EU member states and how favorably they will be. Additionally although EU membership did not prevent trade deals with the commonwealth and other countries, it did reduce the need and the imagination to. It is only when those deals are in place can you truly say leaving the EU has left us worse or better off. In the short-term we will be worse off, I knew that risk prior to voting.

As a Labour supporter and also someone who is very distrusting of the current Tory Government I can hand on heart easily say that not a single thing Farage, Gove, Johnson and Duncan Smith said I believed at face value. In fact I consider Gove as one of the worst Education ministers ever and IDS I hold responsible for the suicide of some disabled benefit claimants, such an odious man. So believe me the leave MP's definitely didn't impress or influence me!

I did my own research which I always do whenever the Government (any party) state things as 'facts'. I knew the £350 million claim would be wrong (which remain supporters kept shouting was lies) however I also knew the Governments claim that every household in the UK would be £4300 worse off was also wrong, but do you get the leave voters shouting lies? Both sides lied, that is a fact!

Since the crash in 2008 many, many people in the UK (not just the British) have not seen any improvement in their wages or living standards. They have borne the brunt of austerity more than the people who could afford to. The 5th biggest economy in the world and an economy that has recovered and grown still has not brought any benefits to the poor and working class. They didn't consider how leaving the EU would affect their ISA's, Savings, Stocks and Shares because they don't have any! They didn't think about if their child could go to Uni because they would never have been able to afford that anyway. The poor and working class in the UK and the EU don't care if they are a bit worse off for a few more years, they are sick of the wealth that is generated only benefiting the wealthy, this was their chance to be heard.

Immigration

I wasn't going to mention this as it did not play much of a part (if any) in my decision and I also feel like as a leave supporter I have to keep defending myself whenever the word immigration is mentioned, simply because the remain voters keep saying we are all racist.

But here goes.

I worked in the Civil Service from the age of 19 for 15 years. I worked with people of all ages, all religions, all nationalities, LGBT and disabled people too. I matured as an adult in this environment and it undoubtedly made my life richer. I was also a Union Rep and defended colleagues in disciplinary, poor performance/attendance, diversity and disabilities (covered by the Equality Act 2010) meetings and hearings , both british and non-british. Since I left I have kept in touch with former colleagues who are now lifelong friends, some are British, some aren't, it wasn't a factor in whether we became friends or not.

I only mention all of that simply because a lot of remain voters think we have no positive outlook on immigrants and we don't mix in a multi-cultural society. They also think we don't understand the positive impact on the economy migrants (EU and non-EU) have. But actually most leave voters do, immigrants pay far more in to the system than they take out in benefits, that's a long standing, well known fact. There are far more british people who falsely claim benefits compared to immigrants.

Unfortunately I will admit there are parts of society, some of which voted leave who don't understand these truths. Some through lack of education, some through lack of life experience with people of diverse backgrounds and some sadly who are racist. These are the people who already felt poor, cut-off and unheard. UKIP and other politicians preyed on those peoples fears and told them they could help fix their problems.

That is not however the majority of leave supporters, I truly believe that. Most leave supporters have had experiences like mine and we all have experienced nothing but positive things from working and living with immigrants, EU and non-EU.

If the EU could have done one thing with immigration then I wish it gave all EU member states the ability to put a temporary block or cap on EU migration. I say this for the simple fact that the UK and other countries don't have the housing, schools and hospitals to cope with the current UK (not british) population growth, we simply aren't building enough of anything. When you add over 300,000 immigrants to that population growth you start to see the strain it creates.

I think the UK can cope with immigration well above 200,000, when it has the infrastructure in place, until then a temporary reduction or block until the work is done would be a useful tool to have. Alternatively you could look at using builders from the EU countries who could then come and work on those very buildings that are needed.

Finally on immigration, I think Governments in all EU countries need to act more responsibly on where and how immigrants are placed in to communities. Dumping some of the poorest immigrants in the poorest parts of the UK next to communities who are experiencing crime, unemployment and disillusionment with life in general and their prospects, is a disaster waiting to happen, especially when some of those people are known racists.

UK employers, EU employers and landlords in and out of the EU also need to be challenged more on their blatant exploitation of immigrants.

Ok flame away!

Asprilla this is the message remainers needed to hear from the politicians. Have you ever thought of going into politics?

puglife15 "Unfortunately I do think you've grossly overestimated the percentage of Leave voters who have come to their decision through a similar process."

I hope not, I hope it's only because the worst leave voters are the ones who have received the most publicity and so influenced others that the majority thought the same as them. But I also admit there is a chance you're right.

No, its the governments job to do the planning.

Going forward is not an impossible task. I was actually gutted Cameron has taken the stance he has. We vote for a Prime Minister to govern at the will of the people, and off he pops.
(QT woman had a great question tonight.....(sic) 'Armageddon? Isnt it that we're simply seeing, armageddon in the political parties?' )
Taking on Merkle and Junker is going to take someone with balls. (Not literally ......obs MN)
Id hope a government can be formed and led by those prepared to fight and represent, ALL of us.

This wasnt a one party referendum. We're not now governed by the 'Brexit Party'.

Its been a bold decision, in the face of threats from both sides of the Atlantic, as well as from within, and for some, from within their own families.

We need a bold statesman (or woman ....obvs) to pick up the gauntlett......not the whole bunch of run for the hills lilylivered current MPs causing the QT womans armageddon question.

For me, that needs to happen asap. Leaving the electorate on both sides of the fence, out in the cold, which is what Cameron and Corbyn have both done, is utterly unacceptable. A bold statesman, acceptable to both remains and leavers, who listens to both remains and leavers.

Im as concerned as the next woman, that no one is stepping up.

Boogers

Ha definitely not!

I think the leave campaign suffered greatly from some terrible Politicians who had various reasons for a leave vote, some of which weren't honourable. They had their own agenda.

However people like Gisela Stuart were definitely worth listening to.

I have friends who voted to leave for the reasons you've given OP and completely see and understand why they've made that choice. They are good reasons.

The problem for me (and many on both sides I suspect) is that your admirably clear reasoning doesn't seem to have been used by the architects of the campaign. They also don't appear to have had any plan in place if the Leave campaign succeeded. It's becoming (I think) increasingly clear that both sides have been duped into making a momentous and far-reaching decision purely for party politics.

Both campaigns were toxic and dangerous. Shouting at people and telling them that nanny knows best and would take away their toys if they didn't behave was a tactic almost bound to backfire by Remain. The Leave campaign (alas) focused on peddling some very dubious statistics along with some extremely dodgy ideology.

I don't think either of them covered themselves in glory, nor was it (to quote IDS) a "robust" campaign on both sides. It was a squalid one. I do, most sincerely, hope that you're right and we come out of this well. As you say, much will depend on the negotiations, although at the moment it is a bit of a moot point who will be doing those and nobody seems willing to step up to the plate.

Interesting times indeed.

"I'm sorry but I don't understand what you're getting at? Before leave voters voted we knew it would involve leaving the EU after negotiating our exit terms. We knew that could take 2 years, we knew new trade deals would then need to be sought and agreed. We knew the Government have to carry this out. The plan for carrying it out is not ours to provide, it's the Government's."

In what universe is it the government's job to plan what you voted for after you voted?

If you plan to do something as big as take a country out of the EU, there should be realistic plans about what is going to be negotiated, what trade agreements you want, what would be acceptable if you don't get what you want, who is going to negotiate them even.

That's what should have been told to voters to offer them an actual informed vote.

It doesn't really matter how long you thought about the issues you wanted to change because it was still an uninformed vote, you have no clue what will change or in what way.

I am afraid because I and many members of my family are mixed race.

"In what universe is it the government's job to plan what you voted for after you voted?"

Because it's a UK Government Referendum! The people vote, they don't carry out the outcome! Do you understand how politics works?

Did the people who voted Conservative at the last General Election carry out their manifesto when they won?

And this is why I'm fucked off.

"Do you understand how politics works?"

Do you?

The government do not know what you voted for, because you do not know what you voted for.

There was nothing to vote for because the politicians pushing to leave didn't actually do anything that would inform anybody about what was wanted from the exit.

Do you expect the government to psychically know what people want?

To spend years consulting with people about it was they wanted?

To push forward their own agenda given they weren't the ones pushing leave?

What?

You don't plan after doing something, that's why it's a plan, not hindsight.

"Did the people who voted Conservative at the last General Election carry out their manifesto when they won?"

No, I expect them to carry it out, because that was the plan that people voted for...see the difference?

Asprilla - I too have posted my exact reasons for voting leave several times on posts and in my experience there are a group of remainers who are not prepared to read/hear what they do not want to. In one particular thread I was on I was pulled up on my spelling, called uneducated and illiterate and to quote "You are just the type of of person who would spit on a Muslim child" FFS. Quite rightly that post was pulled by MNHQ.

Asprilla Thank you.
You have articulated so much of what I was thinking and feeling.

time4chocolate I'm a remained but what you've written is grim. We disagree but both want the best all round but have different ideas how to go about it. I hope I haven't stopped as low as the people you mention in your post. I just want to understand and move forwards, taking into account all viewpoints. Maybe I should go into politics?

"remainer"!! Bloody autocorrect!

OP as a remain voter who is absolutely devasted by the result, thank you for your post. It's the first coherent and sensible set of arguments I've seen for leaving since this whole mess erupted and boris gove and Cameron abdicated responsibility
I may not agree with all your points but they are at least factual and reasoned and give me hope that this may yet turn out to be ok in the end.

"there are a group of remainers who are not prepared to read/hear what they do not want to"

It's not about the reasons TBH, I understand some of those - why do you think no-one is extolling the virtues of the EU?

Because the reasons most people (ignoring the ignorant or racist minority) voted leave aren't wrong.

And you shouldn't be getting abuse.

But my issue is that it wasn't actually an informed vote, it was a blind leap into the dark and I cannot understand how so many people could do that.

You don't go on holiday by turning up at the airport with all your family, no clothes and no spare money, no hotel booked and just buy a ticket for the first plane that's leaving...and that's nowhere near as big a decision as this vote was.

There's a very real chance that Scotland will go, Gibraltar will be Spanish and that it could cause so much trouble in Northern Ireland that they'll pay with their lives, for what? A complete gamble into the dark...

time4 I'm sorry, there are so many mistakes in my last post that I'll try again.

Your post was grim in that you've been accused of being someone who would spit on a Muslim child. That is a despicable thing to say. We want the same thing but disagree on the best way to go about it. There's no need for either side to be nasty. Passionate yes, but let's just have a good, clean debate from all who contribute.

Asprilla11,
Thank you for your articulate post. I don't necessarily agree with your assessment but I defend your right to the hilt to express your opinion and vote the way you did.

Thank you from me too. I couldn't get any sort of reasoned approach when I asked - I didn't ask many, but in context when it came up. I got things about the EU money not making any difference directly to someone's life, and not wanting to be run by people so far away (we want control), and about immigrants stealing our jobs.
I was desperate to see the logic behind this vote, as it will affect lives for so much more than just one term of government. I wanted to know people had done it for genuinely well thought out reasons and was getting more and more angry when no-one was offering any up.

So thanks. I appreciate you taking the time to lay it out so clearly. I also considered some of your points, I just reached a different conclusion. That's true democracy, not voting on a whim based on lies (whichever way the lies swayed you).

HippiePrincess & KnitFastDieWarm

You're both welcome. I think the fall out of the outcome of the vote has hit both sides hard and partly by surprise. I then think Remainers wanted answers but Leavers were a bit frightened because the people voted for vile reasons had already tainted their leave vote.

I have similar reasons for my remain vote OP. It was carefully thought through and I reached my decision before the campaign even started.

I too couldn't get over how grim that campaign was. I was convinced that the constant presence of Nigel in the media was actually a Remainer plot to discredit the Leave side. The only thing that gave me pause in the whole debate was the very touching letter written by the Latvia prime minister.

Arghh I meant leave vote, obviously. Sorry.

Thank you for that OP, very clear and helpful. I'm a Remain but I understand your point of view more clearly now, and respect you for it.