Why I Voted to Leave the EU

[Asprilla11]

So I recently started a thread about the misconceptions many remain voters may have about why people voted leave. I argued that there were many reasons other than immigration and that the majority voted fully understanding what the outcome would mean.

On that thread and many more on MN the remain voters keep asking us WHY we voted and are annoyed when we don't answer in full, they forget that since the result SOME have acted in an aggressive and belittling manner towards us, so why would we feel engaged to reply? Many leave voters have had to spend time defending themselves because we have all been branded thick and racist. We are more than aware some racist people voted to leave in order to pursue their disgusting agenda, most leave voters don't want to be associated with those people and we condemn their stance.

I am willing to say my reasons why I voted leave, even if it means I am attacked for doing so.

EU Commissioners

They are not democratically elected (by EU Citizens) and the President has the final say on any candidate that a member state has put forward. Technically they are accountable to the European Parliament by the fact that the Parliament is able to force the entire Commission to resign through a vote of no confidence. However the Parliament has never done this, but have threatened to do it once. It also needs 2/3 of the Parliament to vote and agree on the reason for the no confidence vote. We can elect MEP's but they have little power over the commissioners.

The commissioners are paid nearly £200,000 per year (some more) and also get generous allowances, benefits and a very good pension. I do not believe the current commission deserve that level of pay, they simply have not earned it, I believe they put their own self interests above EU citizens and I believe they are morally and financially corrupt. If they were worth the salary then the amount would be fine, I just don't think they currently are.

EU Economy

There is very little growth and it is only going to get worse if the Eurozone fully collapses which I feel is a real possibility. Struggling EU nations such as Greece, Spain, Portugal and Italy are in massive debt, suffering with austerity and massive youth unemployment. I don't believe many of the of the other EU nations care about this, as long as the wealth benefits their country then they will pay lip service to those who are less fortunate. I also believe a lot of the benefits of the EU economy and the trade it brings also benefits the wealthier members of society more than the poor, in all of the EU member states.

If the EU had showed they would reform and a new fairer commission was set up which looked at making deals fairer for all EU member states and also looked at immigration in depth (not necessarily changing it) then I would have voted remain without a second thought. However the commission proved what an arrogant bunch they are even before Cameron went to get his 'deal', they won't reform, they don't want to and they don't care who knows it.

UK Economy

The UK will be 6-8 billion pounds better off after no longer paying the EU membership fee, even after the grants we used to receive are taken in to account. However there were several studies that pointed out that the loss in trade will far outweigh the savings from leaving the EU and we will actually be worse off financially. I didn't doubt some of the facts in those studies and I could see how they came to their conclusions, however even those studies have to admit they can't say for certain because nobody knows how quickly we will get new trade agreements with EU member states and how favorably they will be. Additionally although EU membership did not prevent trade deals with the commonwealth and other countries, it did reduce the need and the imagination to. It is only when those deals are in place can you truly say leaving the EU has left us worse or better off. In the short-term we will be worse off, I knew that risk prior to voting.

As a Labour supporter and also someone who is very distrusting of the current Tory Government I can hand on heart easily say that not a single thing Farage, Gove, Johnson and Duncan Smith said I believed at face value. In fact I consider Gove as one of the worst Education ministers ever and IDS I hold responsible for the suicide of some disabled benefit claimants, such an odious man. So believe me the leave MP's definitely didn't impress or influence me!

I did my own research which I always do whenever the Government (any party) state things as 'facts'. I knew the £350 million claim would be wrong (which remain supporters kept shouting was lies) however I also knew the Governments claim that every household in the UK would be £4300 worse off was also wrong, but do you get the leave voters shouting lies? Both sides lied, that is a fact!

Since the crash in 2008 many, many people in the UK (not just the British) have not seen any improvement in their wages or living standards. They have borne the brunt of austerity more than the people who could afford to. The 5th biggest economy in the world and an economy that has recovered and grown still has not brought any benefits to the poor and working class. They didn't consider how leaving the EU would affect their ISA's, Savings, Stocks and Shares because they don't have any! They didn't think about if their child could go to Uni because they would never have been able to afford that anyway. The poor and working class in the UK and the EU don't care if they are a bit worse off for a few more years, they are sick of the wealth that is generated only benefiting the wealthy, this was their chance to be heard.

Immigration

I wasn't going to mention this as it did not play much of a part (if any) in my decision and I also feel like as a leave supporter I have to keep defending myself whenever the word immigration is mentioned, simply because the remain voters keep saying we are all racist.

But here goes.

I worked in the Civil Service from the age of 19 for 15 years. I worked with people of all ages, all religions, all nationalities, LGBT and disabled people too. I matured as an adult in this environment and it undoubtedly made my life richer. I was also a Union Rep and defended colleagues in disciplinary, poor performance/attendance, diversity and disabilities (covered by the Equality Act 2010) meetings and hearings , both british and non-british. Since I left I have kept in touch with former colleagues who are now lifelong friends, some are British, some aren't, it wasn't a factor in whether we became friends or not.

I only mention all of that simply because a lot of remain voters think we have no positive outlook on immigrants and we don't mix in a multi-cultural society. They also think we don't understand the positive impact on the economy migrants (EU and non-EU) have. But actually most leave voters do, immigrants pay far more in to the system than they take out in benefits, that's a long standing, well known fact. There are far more british people who falsely claim benefits compared to immigrants.

Unfortunately I will admit there are parts of society, some of which voted leave who don't understand these truths. Some through lack of education, some through lack of life experience with people of diverse backgrounds and some sadly who are racist. These are the people who already felt poor, cut-off and unheard. UKIP and other politicians preyed on those peoples fears and told them they could help fix their problems.

That is not however the majority of leave supporters, I truly believe that. Most leave supporters have had experiences like mine and we all have experienced nothing but positive things from working and living with immigrants, EU and non-EU.

If the EU could have done one thing with immigration then I wish it gave all EU member states the ability to put a temporary block or cap on EU migration. I say this for the simple fact that the UK and other countries don't have the housing, schools and hospitals to cope with the current UK (not british) population growth, we simply aren't building enough of anything. When you add over 300,000 immigrants to that population growth you start to see the strain it creates.

I think the UK can cope with immigration well above 200,000, when it has the infrastructure in place, until then a temporary reduction or block until the work is done would be a useful tool to have. Alternatively you could look at using builders from the EU countries who could then come and work on those very buildings that are needed.

Finally on immigration, I think Governments in all EU countries need to act more responsibly on where and how immigrants are placed in to communities. Dumping some of the poorest immigrants in the poorest parts of the UK next to communities who are experiencing crime, unemployment and disillusionment with life in general and their prospects, is a disaster waiting to happen, especially when some of those people are known racists.

UK employers, EU employers and landlords in and out of the EU also need to be challenged more on their blatant exploitation of immigrants.

Ok flame away!

And HelpfulChap, I hope that's exactly what I hope will happen. No 2nd referendum (and hopefully, no triggering Article 50), until voters get a better understanding of what they are voting for. Snap general election. moderate lib/lab/green coalition. (And victory - we stay in the EU. Yay!)

Trouble is, citroen that Labour is in complete disarray and the Liberals have a very long way to go before they are a viable electoral force again. Most of us cannot vote SNP. I fear that a general election will give the Tories a huge majority, plus a number of UKIP MPs. A lot of people will feel compelled to vote for Conservative, even if they disagree with Brexit, either because they support the Tories on other issues or because they have no confidence in Labour or the Libs, given the current state of their parties.

We are safer with our current parliament with only a small Tory majority and most MPs supporting Remain.

The EU is not working. It is an over-blown, undemocratic, unwieldy, outdated and unrepresentative organisation.

It is polarising Europe, not uniting it. The Euro is not working - there are now talks splitting the currency into a 'poor country's Euro and a 'rich country's Euro'. Though how you do that I have no idea.

Greece, Spain, Portugal and Italy and have got poorer and poorer. The populations are polarising too - the move from the poorer countries to the richer ones is stripping the poorer ones of their most valuable assets - young, intelligent people who want to work.

AND NO, I AM NOT A RACIST. YES I BELIEVE IN IMMIGRATION - NO I DON'T WANT TO STOP IT.

I believe we should be focusing on investing and building resources in these so-called poorer countries. Let's all help make them richer. We can't do that within the EU - we don't have the power, and the EU superpowers (and we are/were not one of them) don't give a fig about the 'little' countries.

For me, the vote was about control. Do we want to control our own economy, our own trading deals, our own money, or are we happy to let the likes of Juncker and Merkel dictate our future?

Ohno

I agree with you about the single currency - it is mad. But we already control our own money as we are not in the Euro.

But how will Brexit take control? If we want a single market, we will have accept EU regulations. Our chances of getting better deals with non-EU countries than the EU has done are negligible. The EU is a huge trading block with a lot of power. Take TTIP for example -EU negotiators are wearing the US down. TTIP may never happen at all; if it does, it will be on much better terms than originally proposed. In contract, the UK out of the EU will be in a very weak bargaining position with the US - do you really think the US will offer us better terms that the EU could have got through TTIP?

OhNoNotMyBaby - so you are hoping the UK will kindly invest some of the money it saves from not being part of the EU in the poorer countries of Europe, are you?... I suspect you will be deeply disappointed. It doesn't even invest in itself.

The U.K. is not working - it is an outdated concept past its sell by date and deeply undemocratic, as highlighted by the huge discrepancies in wealth, poor infrastructure and deep divisions among the electorate, most of whom have been ignored by their own politicians for years.

As for taking all the talent from the poorer countries - the UK has every intention of continuing to do this. It wants to be more free to cherry pick the talent and be free to exclude the less talented.

I'm not so naive as to believe the UK will change overnight, or necessarily start investing in poorer countries, but I do believe we will be better off outside the EU than within it.

My standard of living has been steadily eroded over the last 10 years - and I'm in a well-paid job. We have food-banks permanently in our supermarkets now - not just at Christmas and not for refugees in some far-off land, but for ordinary, every-day people just trying to make a living and get by - including our immigrant population.

Our high streets are dead and deserted, individual shops cannot survive. We've had 3 deli's go bust in my home town within the last 18 months. And I'm in an affluent SE England area.

Our services - roads, houses, schools, cannot cope.

We need to get our own house in order and the new Government is going to have to listen very carefully to what we - the remainers and Brexiters want.

Labour are in disarray (just when they are needed), but the Tories are also imploding. This government has been in office for barely a year and it is chaos all round. In terms of the popular vote, it was the collapse of the LibDems that swung the last election. Even Labour improved their vote share more than the Conservatives. If the LibDems took a hit for going in with the Tories in the first place, it's not clear, having seen how awful the alternative is, that they would still be punished. I would agree with the other poster that a moderate coalition would have a good chance.

The Government will listen to the City and big business as it always has done. The EU is not to blame for businesses closing down on your high street, the politicians you want to give more control to are responsible for that. Our national politicians have shown themselves entirely incompetent and incapable of deciding what to do about power stations, airports, manufacturing, fracking, reducing inequality, housing and developing depressed regions, and they have ignored the opinions of huge numbers of people on health, education and investment in infrastructure. As for listening to what "we" want - have you not noticed, yet, that we all want something different? Yet we want to "take back control" - which is the same thing as saying that none of us is willing to compromise.

ohnonotmybaby I understand what you are saying…but why do you think that we are unable to cope because of being in the EU? Infrastructure and investment are the responsibility of a national government, not the EU. If you think that immigration is the reason for the pressure on services, how do you account for economic reports showing immigration is a net benefit? Being in the EU brings huge benefits to the UK in all kinds of ways. Why are people accepting that there is this pressure on housing and education and health. How is that people think it is acceptable that their Tory government won't tax higher earners when there are the poverty levels you describe? The pressure is NOT from the EU, it is from the establishment IN the UK.

I think May has said this morning that she wouldn't want a snap election.

ohbaby I understand your discontent. But what no Leaver, including you, has been able to explain to me is how leaving the EU will help? All I hear are vague statements about "getting our house in order". How? What will change?

If this comes across as goady, it isn't meant to. I genuinely want to understand what Leavers expect to happen as a result of Brexit that will improve our financial situation?

Of course she won't call a snap election - she is not interested in fairness or justice. If anyone is tempted to support her, please check her immigration record. Even the Daily Telegraph were appalled.

Many farmers benefit from the CAP. They get thousands of £ a year for leaving their land idle. The figures are all in the public domain btw. If you search you will find out exactly how much money each of the farms and farming companies near you are paid by the EU.

I don't deny farmers need assistance. But instead of them getting EU money for doing nothing, we should be focusing our funds - which will no longer go to the EU - on direct assistance. Diversification, eg vodka from potatoes for example, which we can then sell ourselves rather than importing.

The Erasmus programme enables students to study abroad for a year. Lovely, but how about addressing the fact that every student will leave uni with thousands and thousands pounds' worth of debt?

But this government is anti-direct assistance. It also has no interest in domestic agriculture. It will be all hands off and oh well, if we end up with no agriculture, so what? We can always import our food, along with everything else, so long as we are bringing money in from the City of London... As for students leaving university with lots of debt - are you yet again referring to domestic policy?

Still, with more gfarms going belly up, that frees up more space for low quality housing without accompanying infrastructure.

shiny That is exactly the point, I think people are realising that they need to hold our OWN government accountable for what they do and fight for what they value. That's the key benefit of leaving the EU: elected government that we can hold to account. Some people don't value that as long as they get EU funding for a new leisure centre here and there (it's like a "What Did the Romans Do for Us?" conversation on here sometimes!) but there is great strength of feeling everywhere that that idea MATTERS. Maybe one really positive thing that will come out of all of this is that people will feel inspired to get more actively involved in politics and really fight for the sort of society they want to live in.

Roundaboutthetown Maybe it's time for you to take some individual accountability too - like everyone else in this country. It's all very well saying "oh it's the government's fault, it's nothing to do with the EU." I don't buy that. We live here, we direct the government, not the other way around. Time to change things.

And as Caitlin says, we can fight for the kind of society that WE ALL want.

We don't direct the government, ffs. Try telling that to workers in the NHS and teachers... With first past the post government, my vote has always counted for jack shit in general elections. "We" are not united and politicians and the media play divide and rule. Nobody is going to do what I want. We're just a big mass of people with opposing opinions and nobody has the faintest idea how to bring us together. It's at times like these that people like Hitler come in to fill the vacuum.

roundabout I wouldn't be too sure about the farmers btw. I've never met one who wasn't a Tory, and the Tories count on their support pretty heavily around here.

And I sincerely hope people are wrong about the LibDems, although I heard that they would fight the next GE on returning to the EU, the opportunistic, spineless weasels. Wtf is it with them? Do they even know what they stand for? It's like they pick a populist cause like their anti -Iraq war stance or now Remain, when we all know what happened with tuition fees when they were actually in government. Who would trust them now?

Roundabout
Well we'll just sit down and do nothing and vote for nothing and no-one and let everyone else do what they want shall we? Because nothing will change anything so really, what's the point?

roundabout That's about the most depressing view I've seen expressed on here. If that's what you really believe, I can well imagine why you would vote Remain. Thankfully there are plenty of people out there who haven't given up, don't think we need to have our decisions made for us by Brussels and do have the will to get rid of this shower we're seeing in Westminster right now. They are letting us down, and out of the EU means out of excuses.

There are fewer and fewer farmers the Tories need to rely on, however.

And if they support farmers, then they run out of cash to support the declining industrial North. So that way stability and all of us being in it together does not lie... By the time the government has gone about ensuring nobody who was funded by the EU is worse off than they were before, how much money will be left to bring about the miraculous changes hoped for? You are more or less agreeing it will be the same old, same old - pandering to your core vote and not taking any big risks on any kind of investment.

OhNo - like I say, I always vote, but it has never had any impact on who becomes MP in the areas I have ever lived in. What do you suggest I do? I've protested against wars, against privatising the NHS, against changes in schools, against lowering benefits for the disabled. Did any of it make a difference? Like hell it did. I liked the EU for the fact countries were forced to compromise with each other without going to war over it. Now we've lost that, I can see that we are now more free to fight with each other. We won't be able to blame the EU, now, but we will be able to blame Germany, or China, or Russia. There is no end to who we can blame for our problems. Hey, what the hell, we can even blame each other.

roundabout that's the worrying thing. If we have a recession, previously we were mostly united against the banks and the government, now obviously we have the government to blame, but also each other.