Only for the leave voters - please!!!

[time4chocolate]

I don't want another attack on me I already feel battered and bruised from people on here -I was watching Muse 'Uprising'' at Glastonbury, they were bloody fantastic and the lyrics jumped out at me (maybe I am going mad I don't know) but they summed up what I feel about the EU and why I voted how I did. Worth a listen if anyones has a spare five minutes.

A million votes - 4%, not much though. Problem is that you have handed the keys to more austerity to the Conservative party. Imagine the pain that Gove will pour upon you and Teresa isn't much better.

Anyway I will go and watch TV now, let's hope Wales win.

Mango - and , I have been a bit of a spectator over the last couple of days whilst I recouperated from my virtual mauling , however, I have been cheering you on from the sidelines.

I think this article explains the Leave vote best (not all of the Leave vote, but certainly some of it.) People weren't stupid, they didn't buy the hype, they understood the risks, but they did it anyway because they were fed up with what they saw as an unfair system and this was maybe their last chance to be heard.

www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2016/06/brexit-voters-self-interest/489350/

People will sacrifice their own self-interest and harm themselves, even severely, to enforce norms of reciprocity. We see this not just in the lab but in the real world: hopeless lawsuits pursued to the point of self-destruction, workers suffering through lengthy labor strikes, nations descending into trade wars—or real wars.

I believe that a lot of people outside of London, thought that the size of the "economic pie" wasn't as important as how equally it was split. A smaller pie, but a fairer distribution might actually benefit a greater number of people.

Go conservatives 😀

Yes the use of bigot is somewhat subjective on mumsnet.

Greenish, time4 thanks!

Namehanger - YY for Wales win

Margrethe

For a lot of people outside London there was no pie at all

For the Government, the South East and London, we had from 2008; recession, austerity, recovery and growth.

For everyone else we had recession and austerity and for some things have got worse not better.

Right then - I'm going in for one last kicking before bedtime...wish me luck.

If I don't make it back I'll leave you all something in my will!

Excellent article Megrethe (have bookmarked it).

Especially agree with what you said about a smaller, equally divided pie being more palatable than a bigger, massively disproportionate one.

There is so much to learn from all these different articles but people just don't seem to want to understand the why's of it all - they just want to punish the 'stupid, little people'.

Lol Greenish
Once more into the breach......

What thread is that?
I have come to the realisation that I must be a virtual masochist

Greenish

Get in, Wales!!

Keep the faith, there are lots of normal Remain people out there without the anonymity of the Internet through which to spew bigoted bile. I'm married to one!

I am married to one too

The more I read posts about denying so called " thick" people the vote, denying anyone the vote the more I am sure we have had a narrow but very lucky escape from the EU.Its this sort of thinking that underlies the EU.

Yay Wales!!

Margathe interesting article have read about Dominic Cummings and his " take back control " line. How brilliant it was and tapped into many ideas.....

I'm only just recovering from my kicking yesterday. It was brutal. Giddy 🐐.... we were quiet because we're getting on with our lives. I suggest you do the same instead of lurking about to see whom you can abuse. Go read a book or something.

There are some great posts on here. I found this today and thought immediately of MN, but didn't dare post. I might dare to slip it up here though.

medium.com/@SeanBlanda/the-other-side-is-not-dumb-2670c1294063#.jp9blp1rm

An article called 'The Other Side is Not Dumb' - nothing at all to do with the referendum, but an article about how easy it is to forget the people on two sides of an opinion are both people, and the only way to get past the conflict is to stop the name calling and labelling and to start listening.

That had a huge part to play in my decision to vote leave.

Margrethe rumblingDMexploitingbstds Fantastic articles

🎉🍦Wales 🎈🎈🏆🏆

Trini for your kicking!
It's brutal out there!

rumbling, interesting and accurate!
Have bookmarked it for future posting.

With the echo chamber stuff, I was talking about this today - I'm ex forces (20 yrs served) and I have a huge cross section of friends & acquaintances.

The forces are a great leveller - you are seen as equal to those in the same rank as you, yet your upbringing, education level, background and even age can be polar opposite.

I personally am a working class background and have retained friends from my childhood & teens.
I was 'clever' & went to university - I dropped out after a year & a half because I wanted to earn money & had lost interest but I retained friends from there.
I have made a couple of hundred friends throughout my time in the RAF - from all 3 services & throughout the ranks.

My FB was definitely not an echo chamber - I've seen countless different views & arguments and have had insight into people's deep seated feelings & beliefs.

MN was also invaluable for understanding & considering Remain viewpoints - as always, its anonymity means that posters are far more candid & brutal than people are in rl.

I was always 'Leave', but never a close minded Leave - by the day of the vote I voted with conviction & I was certain that it was the right vote for the future.

I think the most rabid of Remainers are probably those who have had the echo chamber effect tbh - they truly seem to have no comprehension of 'the other side', and don't seem to grasp that Leave is not a neatly packaged concept - it is wide & varied & nuanced across all 17 million.

Just rambling out loud really, but this whole debate has really sparked my interest in people and how they tick, as well as making me more political than I have ever been in my life!

I think you are right, thee "echo chamber" is a real problem.

Placemarking having only discovered this thread...

Mango moon - great post.

Yes, I am a South east remainer liberal, I have no idea of what it is like to be subject to austerity. However I have never voted for the party that has afflicted austerity. I never believed the con which was the 2008 recession was caused by the Labour Party, it was the sub prime contagion. Like you I have travelled widely in Africa and Europe.

I don't think people are mostly stupid or racist, uneducated sometimes and disenfranchised. Nor believe that people all voted for one reason. Yes some remain posters have said unacceptable things but so have leave supporters.

The vote was an outpouring of distrust and dissatisfaction. It should have been the start of a conversation not the shutting of the door. An opportunity to engage with why half of the country feels disenfranchised. All that has happened now is that racists are emboldened, the Conservative party are about to elect a right wing government and more austerity wil, come our way.

And then I come back to my 4% point, how is a 4% vote a sufficient margin? What would have been the acceptable cut off point - 1 vote, 1%, 2%

And Mango it is great that this debate has ignited your interest in politics.

Politics and history has always been my first love. I was lucky enough to grow up in a household that discussed politics and ideas around the dining room table.

If anything good has come out of this sorry debacle it will be that more people engage in politics. Personally I have always found that you more think and discuss politics the more you realise that there are two sides to every argument.