Who do YOU blame for this?

[Crunchymum]

Do you lay the blame completely with DC for this? Afterall he agreed to the referendum in the first place in order to be re-elected.

Do you blame the people behind the lies of the Brexit campaign? BoJo and Gove et al

Do you blame Corbyn and his lukewarm campaign?

Do you blame the non voters or those who voted and now wish they could change their vote?

Do you blame those who voted leave and still refuse to acknowledge they have been mislead?

Do you blame yourself for not reaching out to more people and making sure they knew how important this vote was and how there was no going back?

Are all of the above to blame to a degree?

...talking about which I think Catherine Lucas was right to talk about the need to change electoral representation too, maybe.

Somethingonce, don't blame any of us who voted Remain for this.

CremeEgg, I think Something has an important point. And I speak as a passionate remainer.

These things don't happen in a vacuum and there are a myriad of complex reasons for ending up where we are today. There's some responsibility across the board. There are a lot of disenfranchised out there who hadn't been listened to for decades. In retrospect, it's not that surprising that they took this opportunity to make their frustration heard.

CremeEggThief, I dont think it is a remain/leave vote Something was talking about, I know it is the Daily Mail but Peter Hitchens is I think quite true in this article, which relates to what SOmethingonce was alluding to.

hitchensblog.mailonsunday.co.uk/2016/06/boston-lincolngrad-i-saw-the-seething-resentment-now-it-is-time-to-finish-the-revolution.html

Well, I am not taking any blame and neither should anyone who voted remain! As I said before, it's all the politicians I named in a previous post's fault and I'll add Tony Blair the War Criminal as I forgot about him, and every single person who voted leave and who didn't use their vote. I will NEVER forgive these people and I have no interest in working together in the name of trying to make things better, as this country is broken beyond fixing. I have become more and more angry and disillusioned since the Tories got in 2010 and this is the last straw. I'll stay here 5 years until my DS goes to university and I lose my child maintenance, child benefit, child tax credits, exemption certificate for prescriptions and dental care, entitlement to free school meals and subsidised school trips, then I'm off back to the Republic of Ireland.

I will NEVER forgive these people and I have no interest in working together in the name of trying to make things better,

And therein lies the real problem.

Inward-looking, self serving, small-minded.

Unable to conceive the notion of pulling together, unable to see that together we are stronger despite our differences.

Until this 'them & us' attitude is challenged and won over, nothing will really change.

But if your views are diametrically opposed to someone else's, and you feel that they have deliberately broken something that was important to you, how on earth are you supposed to "pull together?"

But if your views are diametrically opposed to someone else's, and you feel that they have deliberately broken something that was important to you, how on earth are you supposed to "pull together?"

In one-on-one human relationships, the solution is communication: asking the other party to listen to your hurt, and acknowledge your feelings. Listen to theirs in return.

Don't know how that translates in this scenario, though.

What is broken?

We have voted to leave the EU, that is all.

What is broken?
Largely depends on who you ask. A lot of people seem to think its been broken and leaving the EU will fix it, a lot think its broken since we voted. I doubt either are right but I can't say I feel the same about society. Maybe its where I live but it feels pretty broken right now.

I don't blame anyone the right decision was made and all the blinkered remain voters will owe alot of people a apology in 5 years time when the see the sky didn't fall in as they all jump up and down screaming it will

In fact, I take that back.

Society in this country was fractured.
It has been for some time.

The haves & the have nots.
People trying to be heard sneered at & ignored by those that 'knew what was best for them'.
Debate & freedom to articulate that which worries you stifled.

How did we come back from that?
We voted.

Millions of marks on pieces of paper gave the ignored a voice.

Now it's time to bind our own country back together, instead of bemoaning the prospect of our separation from what is rapidly becoming an increasingly far right EU.

And by our own country I mean all of those within our country, every single person.
All creeds, colours, religions, beliefs, intelligence levels, education levels, languages spoken etc.
Every person.

(Just to preempt the inevitable MN "but what exactly did you mean by our own country Mango?)

For the result, ultimately, the voters.

For the referendum ending up being a complete washout and a waste of time (in all likelihood), plus dividing the UK, all politicians.

"Now it's time to bind our own country back together, instead of bemoaning the prospect of our separation"

This, a thousand times over. I've always admired Caroline Lucas too, Fawful.

You know, Mango, I have a lot of respect for your point of view. Even if I disagree with your vote, I completely agree that there is far too much economic disparity, and an entitled ruling class, and that this is untenable.

I think the EU was the wrong target, but I acknowledge that it is also Establishment and, as you say, increasingly far-right. I think it is a flawed organisation. But I also think it is the best vehicle we have for international cooperation and for social justice.

The EU is far-right arguably because of British membership: since Thatcher, it is British governments that have been making the EU about liberalising trade, while quashing attempts at joint European social projects.

And now, it is the British electorate that is left with these neo-liberals, rich white Establishment men who went to Eton, and who want to dismantle the welfare state. I don't see the popular victory in that, but maybe you can tell me what you think the next step will be to heal disparities when these men are in charge?

Totally sincere question.

RiceCrispieTreats, I've actually just had a reeeaaallly long phone call with my best friend of over 20 yrs who lives at the opposite end of the country to me - she voted Remain, I voted Leave.

I spoke to her at length on Friday too after the result came out and she was very upset, whilst I was over the moon.
Speaking to her on Friday really helped me to 'get' her side of it & emotional reaction as a remainer which was great for me to keep perspective and to understand more; she told me today that she had felt the same after talking to me too.

Anyhoo, today we had a long chat about it all and she said pretty much what you have - for her the EU was keeping our awful politicians in check and forcing them to do the right thing (working time directives / gay people in the military etc).
For me, the EU was a parent that I didn't want, treating the UK like child that needs to be kept in check - what I wanted was for our country to govern itself properly with no interference.

Our ultimate goal was the same though - like you, we both want to work & collaborate with Europe & the world, we both want refugees to be welcomed, helped & homed, we both want free movement of workers, we both want redistribution of power & economic wealth across Britain, we both want social justice, we both want our politicians to be honest & to represent the whole of their electorate the very best they can.

What divides us, however, is what we believe to be the best way to achieve this.

She thinks that to remain within the EU.
I do not.

I see the referendum as the first part of the battle; the people spoke and made their voice heard.
Now the political elite who thought themselves untouchable are in turmoil and are imploding spectacularly.

There are a whole raft of amazing up & coming MPs from the 2010 intake who have more than hit the ground running in both main parties, and they are the ones who can bring about the long overdue change to our politics.
This is the second part of the battle in my mind.
Get these people in the cabinet & shadow cabinet & elect 2 strong, principled leaders - not from 'the old guard'.

I truly believe it can be an amazing outcome, but unfortunately the downside is the economical side of things.

I know there will be pain short to medium term, but I truly believe that long term we will be significantly better off.

Hope that makes sense?!

we both want social justice, we both want our politicians to be honest & to represent the whole of their electorate the very best they can.

What divides us, however, is what we believe to be the best way to achieve this.

I totally agree and I have always argued that exactly the same thing is true in how we vote in general elections. I don't get furious with Labour voters, but it seems they do still get furious with me.

It does, thank you, and it is a very accurate description of the common ground I feel with you and other Leave voters who used this as might I call it a protest vote for fairer policies.

I think that, similarly, there is also an amazing opportunity to be grabbed now by the EU minus Britain. Without a very large, dominant country pushing a neo-liberal agenda, the EU can stop going in that direction which has done so much to harm to the environment and the working class. It can focus instead on the policy areas it already does a good job in, and in which it has been hampered by neo-liberalism: workers' rights, consumer protection, environmental protection.

It will probably also be scared into doing a better job of listening to popular disgruntlement.

Of course, it will simultaneously be beset by the instability caused by Brexit, and the rise of populist movements across Europe emboldened by it. There is a risk of collapse, due to toxic tub-thumping nationalism which, in Europe, so often leads to war.

A very grave risk.

But also a tiny sliver of opportunity.

Mangomoon - you are very eloquent and whilst I don't agree with you, I respect your opinion.
WeekendAway - I presume you mean you vote Tory? Well in that case (sorry) I can understand Labour voters being angry. What I don't understand is how you can claim that social justice and the Tory party have anything in common when they have worked to increase the wealth gap and demonised the poor since....well, at least in my living memory, possibly forever!

I'm worried about the rise of the far right across Europe too, very worried.

I do think that by voting out of Europe that we have taken a bold move to curb the increasing far right support in Britain.

An easy piece of oxygen to engage and inflame the disenfranchised was uncontrolled immigration and a convenient scapegoat of Brussels as the bogeyman.

For example:
That fuel will be cut off if we can show that immigration can be controlled, not stopped or reversed but controlled.
Free movement of workers on a needs/point based system.
It will be cut off as we will no longer be stopped from deporting violent criminals, as happened with Abu Hamza for eg.

I don't see how getting out of Europe helps us control immigration at all. For a start immigration (within the EU) was already controlled - it's not true that you can just go anywhere in the EU there ARE controls. Secondly, the EU was there to help us with immigration from outside the EU. That is a problem that should regard the whole union, not just the countries on the fringe like Italy and Greece. Leaving it to them is more likely to cause massive problems imo.

I do think that by voting out of Europe that we have taken a bold move to curb the increasing far right support in Britain.

Perhaps. Time will tell. But also boosted it across the rest of Europe. And instability there will ripple back to cause instability in the UK in different ways.

On another note, for those that have vehemently & often nastily blamed the baby boomers & 'old people' for voting Leave & 'ruining the futures of the young', only 36% of 18-24 yr olds voted.

http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/eu-referendum-brexit-young-people-upset-by-the-outcome-of-the-eu-referendum-why-didnt-you-vote-a7105396.html

Crunchymum

Do you blame those who voted leave and still refuse to acknowledge they have been mislead?

Do you blame yourself for not reaching out to more people and making sure they knew how important this vote was and how there was no going back?

No because most of us thought for ourselves and made informed choices.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/eu_referendum_2016_/2671336-Why-I-Voted-to-Leave-the-EU

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/eu_referendum_2016_/2671677-EU-Referendum-Racists-and-Xenophobes

The result was the right one, there is no one to blame