To point out that not ALL people who voted leave are racist

[EsmeraldaEllaBella]

I'd describe myself as extreme left. I voted leave because the EU's undemocratic. Today I wake up to ALL of my Facebook posting statuses about how they feel sick etc. all my friends are liberal, some of them would hate me if they knew. But if I was asked outright I'd probably be honest. I've made new friends recently who would definitely never speak to me again if they knew though. I feel like everyone who voted leave has been branded a racist. I feel uncomfortable that probably lots of them are sad I feel very uneasy being lumped in with them and might come to regret my decision

Posted this elsewhere but in need of some hand holding I think! Or maybe someone who feels the same way? Anyone?

"The elderly who have propped this country up for decades are now the reason the NHS is failing"

It's not a criticism of old people to say this- it's cold hard fact. People are living much longer, and cost money. As they should. The problem is that people aren't prepared to pay the level of tax necessary to support the NHS, and persist in voting for governments that promise low taxation. Without wondering what that might mean in terms of public services.

Actually a very high percentage are low wage earners which or may qualifiy them for tax credits.(sic)
I assume you're talking about people qualifying for tax credits.
So, what about the Doctors we have in the UK, many of them from European countries, what about the bankers, the scientists, the engineers?
The fact is that the burden on the NHS is due to our aging population and nothing to do with immigration, but you plod on.

I'm so surprised not to be seeing anymore about the pure selfishness of voting leave - racist or not.

The EU is a union of countries supporting each other. Our contributions are improving the lives and economies of other countries in the union. I see so much about how much we give away and we have to look after our own etc etc but what a narrow view that is! The more we strengthen those countries the better it would have been for us. Just because England is strong today doesn't mean it will be in the future and we might need the help of the EU in generations to come.

And you want to close the doors on people who just want a better quality of life?? how many leave voters have never had a fleeting thought about emigrating?? selfish and hypocritical.

How selfish to deny those people a better quality of life just because you were lucky enough your parents bonked here and not there?!

We've done to death the selfishness of robbing the future from the next generation just so you can stick up two fingers to the government (who by the way you've now given even more power too...)

we know the vote was won by the working classes - those who receive help with tax credits, housing and child benefit etc. And perhaps you don't need the eu to keep your income - but did it not occur to you that those who are making the biggest contributions into your pension pots and benefits purses??

are the ones that need the eu the most for their incomes?

I agree v much JandOsmummy, it's selfishness, and no one bats an eyelid at it.

The EU is a union of countries supporting each other. Our contributions are improving the lives and economies of other countries in the union. I see so much about how much we give away and we have to look after our own etc etc but what a narrow view that is! The more we strengthen those countries the better it would have been for us. Just because England is strong today doesn't mean it will be in the future and we might need the help of the EU in generations to come.

Yet us leavers get accused of not doing our research. In 2015;

"In the past year, on two occasions when tested, European solidarity fell apart. Critics say Greece was smashed by the European central bank that was supposed to keep it solvent. There was no democratic redress. The many millions of people who saw the protest hashtag #ThisIsACoup had no way – even indirect – to influence the actions of the commission and the European Central Bank. Then, as refugees from Syria and beyond flowed through the Balkans, two key parts of the legal architecture fell apart: the Schengen agreement, which assures free movement between some central states, was suspended. And the Dublin III treaty, which forces the deportation of migrants to their first country of entry, likewise ignored.

It’s hard to avoid the conclusion: Europe is becoming a continent where force matters more than law. Germany forced Greece to accept a programme that will destroy its economy and strip its state of assets for the next 50 years. Half a million people forced their way across borders in a way that all forms of rhetoric against migration could not stop.That’s great for them: but not for the thousands of sub-Saharan migrants trapped in violent slums across north Africa. They must rot there, simply because they do not have the power to do what the Syrians did. Businesses and politicians have also begun to understand that, in Europe, might is right. Uber, which has faced bans in Spain and had its offices raided three times in the Netherlands, has just been declared legal in the UK.

Staking a claim to a new business model then seeing if it’s actually legal seems to be the new normal. In Europe, the outcome seems hit and miss. Both the action and reactions demonstated something that all Chinese city governments know: when the executive power is far away and the law lethargic, arbitrary pursuit of self-interest is the most effective course of action."

I didn't see most people in the UK shouting about what has been going on in Europe for quite a few years now, we turn a blind eye. There were quite a lot of socialists who voted to leave, exactly for the reasons above that are about non UK problems. We don't view the EU just in terms of the way it gives the UK funding, we judge how fair it is to all EU human beings. The belief by Remainers that there should be no morale aspect to a decision, just a financial one shows why there are big differences to our thinking.

moral*

Well the DIEM movement had just started, and Yanis Varoufakis supported Remain, for all the fault he could see in the EU, as a shield against nationalistic and prejudiced tendencies spreading and for the protection of workers' rights.

So Aspiralla how do you see coming out of the EU we can improve that?

Do you see the UK lending to Greece or permitting thousands more refugees into the country?

Civil servants, lobbyists, folk with money can lobby and give advice but ultimately, and I am quite sure you know this already, they do not get to vote in parliament as an mp does to pass laws. The mp is elected by the electorate to best represent their views and vote accordingly in parliament. The EU commission is elected by NOBODY, are unaccountable and yet were allowed to make our laws. This is not democracy. A democracy is where folk are ELECTED by the electorate to represent their views and concerns. Please tell me, what is democratic about the European commission?

I see the EU in it's current form ending, or been finally forced to reform for the good of everyone if enough countries threaten to leave.

If I thought for a second the EU were willing to reform in to a more democratic, fairer and more transparent organisation then that would have been enough to sway my vote to remain.

History has shown they refuse to reform, it's their way or nothing.

The EU has elected members. The Commission puts forward laws for which the elected members may vote. Most of those laws are actually beneficial to us.
The Civil Service is given a policy brief. They write the the laws, the government then votes on them.

Aspiralla I think you completely dodged the questions???

I've never said they don't do good things, I believe they don't do enough for all EU members and they don't do things in the fairest way. I believe the Commission are very controlling and arrogant.

Caroline Lucas on DiEM (diem25.org):

'Like many people in Britain I have my concerns about the EU. Much like our own Government in Westminster it could be far more democratic, accountable and transparent. That’s why DiEM’s manifesto is so important – because it gives us a pan-European framework for change that we can all focus on. The proposals are both practical and inspiring. Take the suggestion of livestreaming the EU council meetings. It’s easy to do, and cheap too. But this simple measure would hand the power of bearing witness to each and every one of us across an entire continent. It would chip away at the power of the politicians who are so used to operating behind closed doors.'

Yeah, but it's all made up, isn't it

So Aspiralla how do you see coming out of the EU we can improve that?

I did answer.

"I see the EU in it's current form ending, or been finally forced to reform for the good of everyone if enough countries threaten to leave."

So things will improve by the country getting back it's ability to change things like it's currency or other measures. Or if the EU stays but reforms it looks at improving conditions instead of making them worse.

But you specifically mentioned the down sides for the Greeks and refugees - how did us leaving help them? or did it not play a factor in your vote? I just assumed it did since you were keen to point out that the EU doesn't help those two groups of people so it therefore isn't a selfish thing to ignore all the good sides to the eu...

Faw do you live in a high immigration area where it's weeks before you can get a GP appointment, or the local school you grew up near can't accept your child because of over subscription due to high immigration?

Survey after survey shows that the places that have the highest concentration of immigrants tend to be the most positive about immigrants.

What about the effects on hospital waiting times?

What's your evidence base for the idea that immigrants use more than their fair share of hospital resources?

The office of national immigration predicts that 500,000 immigrants ( bringing children over and having children) will increase the population every year. 8 million over 15 years That's about the size of the city of Liverpool springing up yearly. Where is the housing, schooling, medical care going to come from?

Well, first, it's the Office of National Statistics.

Second - I'd suggest the housing, schooling and medical care come from the above-average contribution immigrants, and especially EU immigrants make to the Exchequer. Blaming immigrants for political decisions to divert that funding elsewhere (subsiding pensions and healthcare for the elderly and obese, for example - immigrants are the most cost effective way to fund the costs of an ageing population) is curious. Why do you blame immigrants and not the government?

The goverment are all ready pulling funds for hospitals and schools forcing a austerity program.

And that will worsen without the net contribution immigrants make to the Exchequer.

You tell me how wo can cope with the extra load. So do fuck of with the racist prejudice bull shit. It's getting boring.

Can you tell me what services you're happy to see cut when the tax take from immigrants decreases and we have fewer net contributors in the country?

Also, can you tell me why you are so focused on immigrants rather than population or public spending decisions?

Cordy can I just say that I hope you'll repeat that last post wherever it's relevant, so that more can see it. All in all it's probably one of the best explanations of the sheer moral bankruptcy of the EU which I've ever seen, and illustrates perfectly why many of us voted the way we did

Thank you

By the UK leaving I think it will trigger serious discontent in at least 2 but possibly more countries that get very close to leaving or threatning enough that the Commission has an urgent rethink on some of it's main policies and so finds workable solutions to Greece's problems, Italy's debts and the massive youth unemployment in places like Spain.

Refugees and migrant workers needs a proper rethink, there has to be more planning about where people can go, if the country has enough housing to support a particular number of people, are there enough translators and literature in the right languages when people arrive. Could they send funding to actual local councils, so lets say Birmingham council if we use the UK as an example. I just think there could be more planning and support rather than just say, you can go where you want and that area will sort you out.

Cordy, what are your views on members of the House of Lords serving as ministers in the UK government?

Sorry JandOsmummy I didn't put your question in my reply.

But you specifically mentioned the down sides for the Greeks and refugees - how did us leaving help them? or did it not play a factor in your vote? I just assumed it did since you were keen to point out that the EU doesn't help those two groups of people so it therefore isn't a selfish thing to ignore all the good sides to the eu...

Civil servants, lobbyists, folk with money can lobby and give advice but ultimately, and I am quite sure you know this already, they do not get to vote in parliament as an mp does to pass laws."

Neither do EU commissioners.

Refugees and migrant workers needs a proper rethink, there has to be more planning about where people can go, if the country has enough housing to support a particular number of people, are there enough translators and literature in the right languages when people arrive. Could they send funding to actual local councils, so lets say Birmingham council if we use the UK as an example. I just think there could be more planning and support rather than just say, you can go where you want and that area will sort you out

I think the Migration Impact Fund was a good step in the right direction on this as it was designed to do exactly what you set out. It was scrapped in 2010.