Article 50 will never be invoked now, will it?

[neverknowinglywrong]

Talk about a poisoned chalice for the new leader.

I voted leave. I am very annoyed Cameron reneged on his promise to invoke it ASAP.

It's not going to happen.

Good Lord

That was in response to gunting's article.

"the EU accounts have been signed off and balanced every year."

"Conclusion

Auditors say the accounts are accurate and have been since 2007. But they record significant errors in how money is paid, and this has been the case since 1995".

fullfact.org/europe/did-auditors-sign-eu-budget/

"Plus we will most likely have to accept free movement of people to trade in the single market. How is this meant to stop uncontrolled immigration? "

Now that Caeron has had to resign, there is a slim chance we might get a competent politician in charge who can negotiate their way out of a paper bag, which Cameron struggled with. I think anyone half competent should be able to negotaiate something better than free movement of labour. If they are unable to do that, then the people can vote them out until we get someone capable of negotiating.

'Also we have 650 elected MPs and 803 unelected lords and monarchy. The EU has 751 elected MEPs, 28 elected leaders and 28 unelected commission - please tell me how the EU is less democratic?'

Because our elected chamber has precedence over our favours chamber and the Monarchy can't make a ruling affecting the power of my toaster. We elect our 650, other countries elect most of the EU's 751.

So the accounts are signed off with a margin for error, which actually is 5%, now drill down further and you find that a % of this is local authorities given EU money not always using the tender process properly etc, it isn't quite the accusaton of the "auditors haven't signed off the accounts" in fact that full fact thing proves the opposite.

Again, you've used facts when you think it suits you, funnily it doesn't, just like the last time you did.

you're not really a challenge are you? Just persistent so people give up and go away.

'You are aware that we don't live in a fully democratic country here right? '

Yes, I am aware of the elite and the Establishment.

We all have confirmation bias. I tend to be more conservative than labour because I think conservative is more common sense. Of course, someone like Cameron sorely tests that assumption, so I am prepared to listen to Corbyn to see if he is more common sense, but since I already tend towards conservatism then Corbyn would have to offer something exceptionally good to make me change my mind and saying that "there is no upper limit to immigration" and his sidekick, John McDonnell saying that "every country will have open borders by the end of the century" doesn't sound like something a common sense person would say, it sounds more like something that Goldman Sachs would say.

It is similar for the EU. I like democracy and not rule by people that we can't kick out of office who make rules about the vacuum cleaners I can buy. So I listen to Cameron, but think he is incapable of offering anything to redress the democratic deficit of the EU.

'you're not really a challenge are you?'

But I am not trying to be a "challenge". I am saying that I voted out because I want an independent country with a government that makes our laws and I think the EU Referendum was the people vs the elites, and we the people won and set off the biggest revolution of the last 40 years which is now shaking the entire world, has led to the resignation of Cameron, his friend in the EU, Lord Hill, and may lead to a complete realignment of our politics to make it more accountable to the people.

I didn't participate in that because of figures argued over by Full Fact, I did it as many others did because I wanted a self-governing country where the people choose and deselect their representatives.

What is all of this nonsense from brexiters about vacuum cleaners? There was a reason for the restrictions that effected all of 4 models and it was to do with energy use. Oh wait, I forgot that brexiters are more likely to deny climate change too....

OP, I've been reading up on this.

Only the member state that wants to leave the EU can invoke Article 50. But the EU does have the power to suspend any member state, under Article 7, if the state breaches any of the EU's principles.

Democracy is one of the principles.

So we might end up in a weird situation, where the EU invokes Article 7, because the UK didn't invoke Article 50 (and therefore didn't act upon a democratic referendum).

This is what it was about and we the people won

In this Brexit vote, the poor turned on an elite who ignored them
...
“The sources of their dignity, the dignity of labour, have been eroded and mocked by … globalisation, the rise of finance, the attention that is lavished by parties across the political spectrum on economic and financial elites, [and] the technocratic emphasis of the established political parties.” A lot of the energy animating Brexit, said Sandel, had been “born of this failure of elites”.

www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/jun/25/brexit-vote-poor-elite

Everybody with an ounce of sense already knows this apart from the metropolitan elite and the BBC. We are run by an out of touch and somewhat stupid elite from Eton and Oxbridge.

As Trump says in America "we are sick of dumb decisions made by losers" and it is very similar here with "negotiations" with our partners that are trumpeted but deliver zilch.

The speeches Cameron makes are no different to the speeches Umunna or Blair makes, they are probably all written by the same Oxbridge graduate working at the Mnistry of Love. The facade is fading, the sham is apparent, the wreck and ruin of the working class's jobs is everywhere to be seen.

The people no longer listen to the speeches of Cameron and Umunna, we've heard it all before. This referendum was the last chabce for the people to get some change, the chance to "kick the establishment" and shake the bankers and the spinners and the courtiers who serve the lobbyists and not the people.

The British people took their chance against all the might of the media broadcasts and scares from the Establishment and the British people won. The whole world is stunned.

I like democracy and not rule by people that we can't kick out of office who make rules about the vacuum cleaners I can buy.

Legally the EU status is an international institution & it has more democratic controls than any other international institution. It isn't ruled by people who can't be kicked out of office.

EU Council (democratically elected heads of EU states) sets the EU agenda & together with the EU Parliament adopt laws & endorse them.

The Commission is an executive body that advices, draft & propose the laws in much the same way as the law commission, civil servants & lawyers do in the UK. MEPs elected by EU citizens have the powers to appoint & dismiss the Commission.

Ha Claig, you do make me laugh.

Anyway I'm not going to bother you any longer.

Good luck when Christmas comes xx

Cleig to be honest, I can't read your comments through all of the 'elites' and 'people ' talk. It just seems like tin foil hat nonsense.

The suggestion that remain voters are not 'the people' is just bizarre. I'm a young mum who grew up on a council estate that can't afford a house or maternity leave. Do you reckon I'm the elite?

Powerful Katie Hopkins article that gives a Brexiteer perspective on why this was such a historic vote. It was not about pounds and pence or trade as the Labour politicians wanted us to believe. It was about democracy and liberty.

"Pinch me, I must be dreaming. It's the day Britain stood up proud and tall and reclaimed its birthright
...
Watching the results come in was a glorious thing. A moment in history. Hearing the heartlands of the nation jump to its feet, one by one, and shout 'leave'.

West Devon: Leave. Sheffield: Leave. Sunderland: Leave.

Each returning vote, flicking a v-sign right back at Bob Geldof, simpering liberals and the politics of fear.

Ashford. Leave. Erewash (I know, me neither). Leave. Eastbourne. Leave.

The authors of the Remain campaign, now conspicuous by their absence. Lying low; pondering their chances of clinging on to their selfish ambition.

Theresa May - happy to lecture our police. Too weak to fight for our country. Now wondering if she said sufficiently little to stay in post. Pathetic.

Osbourne - rowing back on every threat he ever made, watching power slip through his fingers as quickly as his receding hair.

Britain has finally stood behind our big hitter, Boris Johnson (pictured) who put it all on the line to be true to the vision for Britain he believes in

Britain has finally stood behind our big hitter, Boris Johnson (pictured) who put it all on the line to be true to the vision for Britain he believes in

Philip Hammond, Jeremy Hunt, Justine Greening, and 18 other cabinet members, suddenly on the wrong side of history. Backing the wrong horse.

Coventry. Leave. Darlington. Leave. West Midlands. Leave.

All shouting right back at the liberal luvvies paraded before us as the definitive arbiters of right and wrong, what's socially acceptable and not.
...
And woe betide the martinets of Brussels if they even think about robbing us. Or making us keep voting until we get the right answer like they did the Irish.

We won fair and square against some of the most reprehensible campaigning I've ever seen.

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3658316/Pinch-dreaming-s-day-Britain-stood-proud-tall-reclaimed-birthright.html

' It just seems like tin foil hat nonsense.'

OK, you are entitled to your view but I think you, like Umunna and Blair, who says "I don't understand what is happening in the world", are missing what it is really all about and why we have just witnessed the greatest revolution of the past 40 years.

'The suggestion that remain voters are not 'the people' is just bizarre'

I never said that.

'Do you reckon I'm the elite?'

No, but I think that you believed Cameron and Osborne and the Bank of England and the IMF who are part of the elite, and the majority of the people didn't.

Katie Hopkins, that famous defender of the people

Claig some more utterly strange assumptions. I wouldn't trust Cameron and Osborne to look after my goldfish.

But the "elite" argument doesn't stand up at ALL, seeing as how Gove, Johnson and Farage are all as Eton/Oxbridge/upper-middle as they come...

What am I missing?

And Katie Hopkins' piece is just idiotic. Each of the Leave voters was just voting to Leave human rights, Leave workers' rights, Leave EU subsidies, Leave being the financial capital of Europe, Leave environmental benefits, and in fact Leave themselves PURELY at the mercy of whichever government is in power at the time.

'What am I missing?'

There are lots of rich people and lots of people from Eton and Oxbridge, but they are not all part of the elite. The elite are the ones who wield power or serve power because at the end of the day it is power that counts.

Rees-Mogg is Eton, Oxford and is a great, funny, independent guy, but it is precisely his independence that makes him not one of the elite and which means that he is not a big beast in politics, not a mover and shaker because he doesn't obey the power, he goes against what the power wants e.g. he was for Brexit and the power was all for Remain.

We shall see. I have an inkling something is taking place. I doubt very much that the elites and establishment will let this pass.

Claig - harrumph, i live in Erewash, it's in Derbyshire.

This "I think something is taking place" -type thinking is what got us into this mess! It's just another conspiracy theory, like the MI5 erasers, and the Remain camp spouting "lies" (which are in fact already coming true).

Nobody can believe that they'd be allowed by the Elite to make a mistake. They're waiting for The Elite to rescue them. Which is the OPPOSITE of what every Leaver said they wanted!

Leavers claimed to want independence, freedom, no more being bossed around by bureaucracy .... Well, you got it!

How do you like it so far?

What am I missing?

Nothing. Which is coincidentally what some people have between their ears.

'Claig - harrumph, i live in Erewash, it's in Derbyshire.'

Hi, Puppy, that was Katie Hopkins who said that, not me

I didn't know where it was but I love the name, a mixture of Ereward the Cake and Wash, great sound.

"There are lots of rich people and lots of people from Eton and Oxbridge, but they are not all part of the elite. The elite are the ones who wield power or serve power because at the end of the day it is power that counts."

Rees Mogg is an MP, and the son of a hereditary peer who was also an MP and editor of the times, he is as establisment as they come, basically he was allowed to be a candidate for the Tories till he got a seat, he's not there by his own abilities. When he canvassed in his first attempt at getting a seat ( at 28) he did so with his nanny.

Basically your theory of the establishment is anyone who is in power or has power who does things that you don't like or essentially as you keep citing the independent advice of the Bank of England as being "establishment" anyone whose analysis of brexit you want to disregard.

You don't think the owners of the newspapers that backed leaving are establishment either.

Essentially, you don't know what you are talking about, and you've voted for something that will make life far harder for "the people", you've been duped.