Article 50 will never be invoked now, will it?

[neverknowinglywrong]

Talk about a poisoned chalice for the new leader.

I voted leave. I am very annoyed Cameron reneged on his promise to invoke it ASAP.

It's not going to happen.

[claig]

'but you listened to those of the other side'

No, we didn't listen to what Boris Johnson said in order to make up our minds. We already knew, as Dominic Sandbrook in the Daily Mail says "it was brewing for years", it was a long time coming.

As Will Self decried , the working classes of the North East and all of England and Wales couldn't be reached by the pollsters, they couldn't be reached by the political elites because they don't understand the people. The BBC couldn't pull their usual tricks on the people for the sake of the metropolitan elite.

There was record turnout, and Cameron and the Etonian team breathed a sigh of relief as their Lords Such and Such who poll for them told them, "it''ll be alright on the night". But it wasn't alright, the people gave them an awful fright. The high turnout was the working classes, so long ignored, so long mocked, so long despised by the metropolitan elite in Westminster and at the BBC and they were voting out.

'This is the first of many disappointments. '

This is the first victory of the people over the elites. It may be followed by disappointments, but we are used to those in the Houses of Praliament. Rome wasn't built in a day, but we are on the way to governing ourselves once again and having an independent country.

[BlunderWomansCat]

It was nothing to do with lies and spin or unelected elites. People who I work with who voted out done so purely on the 'foriners coming over here, getting benefits and housing handed to them on a plate' shite, all said infront of a Latvian staff member

[claig]

BlunderWomansCat , the ordinary people don't blame the foreigners, they blame the elites for allowing uncontrolled immigration of about 330,000 per year which puts pressure on hiusing and schools and the NHS and on wages and jobs.

We are governed by people like Cameron - amateurs from Eton, who are completely out of touch with the majority of people. That is what the people voted against, against "the biggest stitchup since the Bayeux Tapestry" of all the bigwigs, bureaucrats, servants, media and banking interests who ignored the wishes of millions and millions of people.

[smallfox1980]

Oh god:

"The BBC couldn't pull their usual tricks on the people for the sake of the metropolitan elite. "

You really are delusional, also the "run by unelected bureaucrats" narrative too. You've heard of the civil service right?

I agree Blunder there was a very large element of that too, Nick Robinson and Robert Peston have both commented on the elites thing though.

[smallfox1980]

See you can't even use the statistics right.. 330,000 is net migration, the largest part of which is non-EU migration, and also includes 85,000 returning Brits.

[claig]

'You've heard of the civil service right? '

Are you refering to the organisation of which the man called by the Daily Mail "Sir Coverup" is a part? I have heard of their existence.

'Nick Robinson and Robert Peston have both commented on the elites thing though'

Yes, they have finally got the message but years and years too late. The people were saying it years ago, the BBC can no longer pretend it isn't there.

[BlunderWomansCat]

I don't necessarily disagree with you Claig you obviously hang about with much more erudite people than me

[claig]

'See you can't even use the statistics right.'

But this is where the wonks and whizzkids working for the metropolitan elite got it wrong. People don't care about the exact figures, about whether George Osborne warns us every household will lose £4300 or £4200 if we vote to leave. People form judgements based on average figures, they don't focus on £350 million on a bus as opposed to net £150 million etc. What they focus on is that it is a lot.

[smallfox1980]

Which is exactly why they have been duped by the "elites" in order to vote for something that is not in their interest.

Your use of the 330,000 figure also shows the extent of your intellectual dishonesty, you're happy to use figures when they suit your agenda (even if they aren't correct) but dismiss the ones that disagree with you.

[claig]

'ou obviously hang about with much more erudite people than me'

Well let's just say that Crazy Kate from Crewe, Fat Tony from Teddington, Mean as Hell Monica from Manchester and Mad Frankie Taser, aka "The Dentist", have never been called "erudite" yet and if they were would probably take offence thinking it was a swear word.

[BlunderWomansCat]

It will be interesting to see if A50 gets invoked at all. BoJo looked decidedly terrified when confronted by the mob outside his house. As far as I'm concerned he is part of the establishment. I suspect he's lost many of his banker mates due to this folly. I really don't think he thought brexit would win.
Who the fuck wants to inherit this mess?

[JudyCoolibar]

How on earth can the EU force Cameron to do anything about Article 50? I wouldn't mind these proclamations if people would come up with something concrete rather than vague allegations about how they'll just bully him. He just isn't in the same position that he was in when he went to them previously.

[claig]

'Which is exactly why they have been duped by the "elites" in order to vote for something that is not in their interest.'

Boris is a plonker, the elite are angry with him for joining the people (at least temporarily). They would have preferred Boris on their side along with Eddie Izzard and all the rest.

'Your use of the 330,000 figure also shows the extent of your intellectual dishonesty'

No because I don't read threads with lots of facts and figures, I don't read manifestos, I don't listen to Osborne's speeches with his forecasts. I vote on emotion like most other people who are not wonks do. I already knew which way I would vote before it all started because I believe in democracy, self-governance and the people over the elites.

[BlunderWomansCat]

Crazy Kate from Crewe sounds like the kind of person I'd like to go for piss up with.

[JudyCoolibar]

So are you prepared to accept that the 330,000 figure was scaremongering fiction, claig?

[claig]

She's a good laugh as long as you find it amusing to buy every round of drinks, as she always claims she is skint when it is her shout.

[claig]

'So are you prepared to accept that the 330,000 figure was scaremongering fiction, claig?'

I don't know what it was as I didn't pay much attention to it. If they had said it was 230,000, it would still have been a lot.

[smallfox1980]

But you used a figure when you thought it suited your argument to do so. throwing out 333,000 people and then discussing the pressure on public services being caused by immigration. Which has been discussed at length here and has been proved to be a bit of a myth

You then go on to say you'd made your mind up before the referendum debate started and don't read the information but make your mind up based on gut feeling.

Essentially that you had a preconceived opinion and you won't listen to anything that disagrees with it.

[claig]

'But you used a figure when you thought it suited your argument to do so. throwing out 333,000 people and then discussing the pressure on public services'

Because that is a figure I had heard. If you have proof that it is wrong, then I will use the revised figure. The figure for me is not that important, it is just an indicator.

'Essentially that you had a preconceived opinion and you won't listen to anything that disagrees with it.'

Yes, and that is like most people which is why Cameron, Eddie izzard and the BBC couldn't reach those people. We don't believe them.

[smallfox1980]

So you didn't research what impact a leave vote would have? Or what effect being outside the EU would have?

[smallfox1980]

and how can you talk of elites and unelected bureaucrats if you haven't thoroughly researched the workings of the EU?

[claig]

'So you didn't research what impact a leave vote would have?'

No, I didn't spend any time "researching".
I listened to debates, I read some newspaper articles and I watched some speeches by stooges. I already knew that I wanted a self-governing independent country that could make its own laws and that could end the nonense of regulations such as the ones on the pwoer of vacuum cleaners and toasters, could end the nonsense of open door immigration, and the nonsense of rule by a bunch of servants that we never elected.

Based on what I heard from Cameron and the Establishment team, there was nothing they were allowed or permitted to do by the lobbyists that could change any of that.

'and how can you talk of elites and unelected bureaucrats if you haven't thoroughly researched the workings of the EU?'

Because thse exist in the UK as well as the EU. The EU hasn't signed its accounts off for years, so "researching" the EU seems likely to bring up figures that may have been spun for best effect rather than for the truth. But I don't need to "research" the EU to know that it is undemocratic and that is why I don't like it. Even Corbyn said it was undemocratic.

[gunting]

Small research doesn't seem to be a strong point for brexiters, they just seemed to watch 'brexit the movie' (shite) and that was that.

Hmm laugh or cry? indy100.independent.co.uk/article/the-mail-has-explained-what-brexit-means-and-its-readers-seem-shocked--Z1772TI4aNW

[gunting]

Claig the EU accounts have been signed off and balanced every year.

Plus we will most likely have to accept free movement of people to trade in the single market. How is this meant to stop uncontrolled immigration?

Also we have 650 elected MPs and 803 unelected lords and monarchy. The EU has 751 elected MEPs, 28 elected leaders and 28 unelected commission - please tell me how the EU is less democratic?

[smallfox1980]

So you'll make an appeal to authority by saying that even Corbyn says they are undemocratic but not listen to anything else?

You are aware that we don't live in a fully democratic country here right?

You're point about the EU accounts, how do you know that if you haven't researched it? If you did you would find that it's far more complicated than that and doesn't quite demonstrate what you think it does.

You just look for bits of information that confirm your opinion, confirmation bias demonstrated at its best.

This is why you have been duped by an elite bunch of neo liberals into voting for something that won't benefit you.

An effective turkey voting for Christmas, which is a shame because you have quite a nice phraseology.