Talk me out of Brexit. I am ashamed of myself!

[MerryMarigold]

So, all along I have been very against Brexit. To be truthful, I don't know enough about it all, but I felt like it's an isolationist policy, a selfish policy and the political leaders at the forefront (self serving in the extreme) were enough to put me off in a big way. I also have very many friends from Europe.

However, I have recently had pause for thought and wanted to share this with you. Two stories of people 'on the ground' that have made me have a rethink.

a) A good friend of mine who moved here from the Caribbean when he was 15, with his siblings and Mum. His Mum worked here, has an NI number, a pension and an NHS number but relocated back to the Caribbean for retirement. She is now old and needs more help so has come back here, but she can't get residency, despite all her family being here. The Home Office have basically said there one remit is to reduce immigration, so this is why it's so much more problematic than it would be a few years ago.

b) A friend of my Mum's recently died of cancer. She was young. Her Mum lives in Ghana. It was extremely difficult for her to get a visa to come for the funeral. All sorts of hoops needed to be jumped through. I don't know the ins and outs, except that at a very difficult time, her daughter's death and funeral, she had a very hard time making it over here.

So, my thoughts are now that with the influx of European migrants, are we actually becoming more isolationist? Are we so focussed on Europe that we are reducing those coming from other countries who may be in greater need? Is the pressure to reduce immigration so great, that those from Africa/ Asia/ Caribbean are finding it ridiculously difficult? Is a result of being in the EU that we can't offer refuge to Syrians? Would exiting Europe help others in the world have more access to the UK?

I am well aware that if we ever do exit the EU that it is not suddenly going to be easier for the rest of the world to enter the UK, certainly with this government, but the principle is there. That we can be more open if we are less open to Europe. Possibly. Maybe. I don't know.

I don't have time to read every last article on this subject so I was wondering if you can help me feel more positive about staying. I really would prefer to vote to stay, but not if the effect is to close us to everyone except Europe.

Nothing's been signed though with the 'renegotiation' though. It hasn't been sanctioned by the powers that be has it? It could all be pie in the sky.

Exactly.

Truth is, no one knows what Brexit will be like and if they are being honest, no one knows what the EU will look like in 15 years either.

If you find yourself at this stage and have never followed European news - perhaps look at EU's own websites re. their intentions.

It is every day knowledge on mainland Europe that the EU is about total integration. It is called a political project. The next step is further financial and tax integration.

They currently are trying to speed up the integration as they believe this is the answer to the failing economies - Italy, Spain, Greece. Italy banks close to collapse.

If you knew anyone that lives in Brussels - you would know how openly integration is discussed. It is seen as the solution and why it doesn't work currently - too many countries with their own tax systems.

Britain is known for putting fingers in ears and pretending not to know and asking to stay on sidelines. EU News for home consumption is staggeringly different to how presented abroad.

I always encourage people to do their own research rather than listen to others.

Two EU own web attachments here:

www.euractiv.com/section/future-eu/news/italian-pm-vows-to-push-for-united-states-of-europe-during-presidency/

ec.europa.eu/priorities/sites/beta-political/files/5-presidents-report_en.pdf

.

Remember - "common market" forty years ago - the direction of travel is clear even to those who

Many people I know love (at least some of) the benefits from being in the EU - have worked abroad, collaborated on pan EU science projects etcetc

That's quite a specific (although not tiny) demographic, isn't it?

STEM and financial sector professionals are conspicuously over-represented in the vocal remain lobby. In this house (public sector and media) it's not an issue. Friends who only held EU passports have naturalised in the last couple of years (after the UKIP surge or in anticipation of the referendum) and the prospect of work and holiday visas (for short trips) to more countries doesn't seem to be getting anyone worked up.

I shouldn't imagine that the 50% of the country earning under £27k are overly concerned about working abroad or academic collaboration either.

just i was just giving some examples of positive things. There are many more! those on 27K and below then I'm sure will love having to pay extra for holidays, right...

leave I happen to live in Brussels, which is why I give a shit as well - quite concerned about my personal future and kind of hate the misinformation around. I can tell you that is a weird representation of the news here. Yes on certain things it's true that you can look at a topic and think - wow wouldn't it work better if it was coordinated (for example carbon taxes - to make sure ambitious climate legislation but also a level playing field). But you know it will never fly. The stories you have promoted are the vision of specific people, others have a very different vision.

In the meantime, the current Commission has really cut back on proposing legislation and basically doesn't propose anything that they think won't get voted through (which they get grief about from people who care about the climate etc).

just plus as I mentioned above - the people on lowest wages are always the ones who get screwed when there's economic uncertainty

The poor don't have much to hope for as it stands.

I hope you can secure your position anyway kitty.

the UK is recognised to generally get its way

Really? Compared to the other 27 states we are the most outvoted country of them all.

PS just to clarify, I don't work for the EC ...in case you think I'm trying to goldplate a fancy EU pension or something. nothing of the kind. I'm worried in a bog standard way as are many UK expats about what happens to the rights we currently have. I could also potentially make a killing out of Brexit, so .. what I'm saying is my genuine opinion.

Sorry lots of auto correct and spelling crazies and in that post ....empathetic...

winterbiscuit yes we are outvoted on 3% of legislation. If you don't call getting your way, getting your position on 97% of legislation.....

just Thank you! I'd rather take my chance with the EU than with Gove, Johnson, IDS et.al. Not to mention the other supporters of BREXIT (Trump, le Pen, Putin..)

It hadn't actually occurred to me kitty

Yes - reminds me of Victorian times - the quality of life of our poorest workers has been made even more difficult.

Frank Field said last week we've created an 'Edwardian serving class' - great for some.

Lowest paid are the ones competing with EU workers. Remember for lots it isn't about a handy part time job - the minimum wage is their only source of family income.

Minimum wage has become maximum wage for lots. Labour are a talking shop and do not represent the poores in our society at all.

I think Labour will lose more and more working class voters - it is out of touch and more concerned to be perceived as empathetic, rather than actually being empathetic.

EU suits big business who lobby for their interests.

i don't think voting leave is racist, both me and my husband will be voting leave and are foreign. i don't know that much about it i just think a country as strong as this can go it alone.

netflix we are strong but compared to other countries globally we are small - basically we are voting to deny ourselves free access to the trade market in Europe.
Also, here's something I posted on another thread: How trade deals work: HINT if you are trying to negotiate a trade deal with a larger country you will come off worse.
www.facebook.com/StrongerInCampaign/videos/1176877825685873/?pnref=story

I linked to the five presidents report - the EU intentions and intended time frame.

Junker - old fashioned federalist

www.towardsfederaleurope.eu/federalists-welcome-junckers-plans-closer-european-economic-political-integration/

Leave - can you tell me what's wrong with the integration he's talking about, which is probably where I lost you before because I thought you were talking about overriding MS decisions - it doesn not equal removing sovereignty, it's about improving infrastructure, energy security etc. Juncker's Commission has proposed in fact far less legislation than previous ones.

Your link states:
"Federalists welcome Mr Juncker’s plan for closer economic and political integration, in particular his proposals for deepening and strengthening the Eurozone (including Eurozone fiscal tools and budget and a single representation in the international institutions), extending the European single market, investing 300 billion euro in European traditional and new infrastructures in the next 3 years to balance national austerity and reform programmes and kick-start the European economy, developing an energy union centred on pooling of energy resources and pan-European energy networks as well as ambitious renewable targets."

Infrastructure is one of those things which is best to plan on a big scale - economies of scale, for energy it's about things like enabling countries to use more renewable energy (if you improve grid connections then surplus energy from one country can go to another and help balance renewable energy variations and so on and so forth... ). But, only based on what the Member States want to do.
Eurozone - the UK is not a member of.

www.filmsforaction.org/articles/the-uk-might-leave-the-european-union-heres-why/

The UK Might Leave the European Union. Here’s Why.
Brilliant comic sums up tough choices around EU Referendum

Right, been off in RL for a bit. Think the conversation's moved on. Still all v interesting reading though.

kitty, I'm interested to hear that you live in Brussels. I haven't known what to think of this (quite popular) idea in the UK that it's common knowledge in mainland Europe that the EU is about total integration.

sapphire well what I found interesting from the discussion with leave is that Brussels loves to talk about integration - but what they mean is pretty different from what the UK seems to understand. I.e. it's things like discussing how to connect up energy grids, and the UK seems to hear 'we're taking over your energy system'... not the same thing!

e.g. if Brussels talks about improving infrastructure, they mean they're going to work with MS to set standards for electric car plugs across the EU, and allocate funding for projects proposed by Member States and try and coordinate projects where possible.. they don't mean an EU bulldozer is coming to your town!

I do think there's a tendency to overstating EU influence in the UK. I find the rhetoric about 'sovereignty', 'freedom' and, just heard on the radio, 'wanting our country back' laughable, but also hugely frustrating.

hellokitty, that's a great comic. It's definitely a tougher choice than I first thought...I still think the Brexit attitude is basically arrogant though. We're 'better' than the rest of Europe, we're strong enough that we don't need them, we don't want to be tied to other countries which aren't as good as us, we're good enough to go it alone.

It reminds me of a family really where there are 'issues' and some dysfunctionality. Some people want to go completely NC. Other people (who are benefitting from the dysfunctionality) are very happy with the status quo. Others want the dysfunctionality to improve, for contact to remain, but with the knowledge that no human being is perfect. Generally I don't agree with NCers, unless there is actual abuse. But I don't think the EU is abusing us.

What is 'actual' abuse? People don't go NC at the drop of the hat; Usually the opposite - they hold on too long.

Kitty re integration not happening - have you read to the end of the 20 plus page five presidents report I linked to - this is the EU intentions in their own words.

The five presidents of the EU report shouldn't be skim read - it takes you to page 22 where they are heading - budgets of member states.

Beginning of report:

"For the euro area to gradually evolve towards a genuine Economic and Monetary Union, it will need to shift from a system of rules and guidelines for national economic policy-making to a system of further sovereignty sharing within common institutions, most of which already exist and can progressively fulfil this task.

In practice, this would require Member States to accept increasingly joint decision-making on elements of their respective national budgets and economic policies."

ec.europa.eu/priorities/sites/beta-political/files/5-presidents-report_en.pdf

To pretend staying attached to the EU is the status quo is wrong - they are determined to move closer and they've caused misery to countless people in Southern Europe to date. Risky to stay attached to a political ideal of merging such different people and economies - not to mention others yet to join eg Montenegro

"sovereignty sharing"

or discarding...