Talk me out of Brexit. I am ashamed of myself!

[MerryMarigold]

So, all along I have been very against Brexit. To be truthful, I don't know enough about it all, but I felt like it's an isolationist policy, a selfish policy and the political leaders at the forefront (self serving in the extreme) were enough to put me off in a big way. I also have very many friends from Europe.

However, I have recently had pause for thought and wanted to share this with you. Two stories of people 'on the ground' that have made me have a rethink.

a) A good friend of mine who moved here from the Caribbean when he was 15, with his siblings and Mum. His Mum worked here, has an NI number, a pension and an NHS number but relocated back to the Caribbean for retirement. She is now old and needs more help so has come back here, but she can't get residency, despite all her family being here. The Home Office have basically said there one remit is to reduce immigration, so this is why it's so much more problematic than it would be a few years ago.

b) A friend of my Mum's recently died of cancer. She was young. Her Mum lives in Ghana. It was extremely difficult for her to get a visa to come for the funeral. All sorts of hoops needed to be jumped through. I don't know the ins and outs, except that at a very difficult time, her daughter's death and funeral, she had a very hard time making it over here.

So, my thoughts are now that with the influx of European migrants, are we actually becoming more isolationist? Are we so focussed on Europe that we are reducing those coming from other countries who may be in greater need? Is the pressure to reduce immigration so great, that those from Africa/ Asia/ Caribbean are finding it ridiculously difficult? Is a result of being in the EU that we can't offer refuge to Syrians? Would exiting Europe help others in the world have more access to the UK?

I am well aware that if we ever do exit the EU that it is not suddenly going to be easier for the rest of the world to enter the UK, certainly with this government, but the principle is there. That we can be more open if we are less open to Europe. Possibly. Maybe. I don't know.

I don't have time to read every last article on this subject so I was wondering if you can help me feel more positive about staying. I really would prefer to vote to stay, but not if the effect is to close us to everyone except Europe.

we can relax a bit more on non EU

This may or may not be true, but it won't help the individuals you mention in your OP (one of whom isn't even an immigrant, but a visitor).

If you are genuinely concerned about these people, and this post isn't just "concern trolling", then the vote that matters is the one you place in the general election, not in the referendum. The outcome of the referendum will make no difference in either of the cases you cite.

Misti, I'm definitely not a troll. I've been on MN since 2006 soon after I had my first child, and I'm usually fairly rational! You can read my other posts and see that I post on a whole load of topics, and not in a troll-ish way. I put those two people in my post as they both involve the Home Office, and how things have become tighter in more recent years.

Yes, of course the vote in the General Election matters more to these issues, but I am certain on how I vote for that whereas this I recently had a wobble (although how useful my GE vote is, I don't know, as where I used to live was a very very safe Labour seat and I have now moved to a vast Conservative majority with UKIP in second place - ooops).

If you dont have time to look into it in more depth then I would reiterate the advice I have seen elsewhere. Divide a sheet of paper in 2, write down all the people and organizations in favour of Remain on one side and all those who are pro Brexit on the other. This info is easily accessible from the respective campaign sites. And then decide which side you feel most comfortable with. Even if I hadn't decided for Remain the fact that the leading lights of the other side include Boris Johnson, Michael Gove, George Galloway and that idiot Farage with support from Trump and Putin would make up my mind. Despite that meaning I am aligning myself for the first time ever with Cameron and Osborne! And ask yourself whether you can see Boris, especially in light of his recent blatantly racist remarks and Farage with his rantings about sex attackers today using a reduction in EU immigration to mean we can welcome in others from further afield.

Oh dear. This referendum should be about the issue - not about personalities.

Suggest you take the same approach and examine who is backing each side.
REMAIN - Goldman Sachs, Jp Morgan, Citigroup, big banks that were loathed for creating a banking crisis a few years ago,, big tax-avoiding corporations with 30,000 lobbyists shaping EU law to suit themselves. All backed by those who receive EU funds: IMF, CBI, OECD, or those who are appointed / employed by the Government - Governor of the Bank of England (ex-Goldman Sachs employee), the Treasury. The Kinnocks, who have done very nicely out of the EU, as has Mandelsohn, and Paton. All backed by tons of 'pro-EU evidence provided by EU-funded academic institutes - the ultimate in sock-puppetting at the UK tax-payer's expense. The amount of blatant self-interest is shocking. All supposedly 'concerned for workers rights'. Yeah, right.

On the LEAVE side are self-made business men like John Mills, Arron Banks and Peter Hargreaves.

Vote with your gut. If you feel comfortable with Goldman Sachs bankrolling remain ( and there must be lots in it for them or they wouldn't do it, and I am not comfortable with anything that particular firm espouses), then vote to stay. Be aware however that you are not voting for the status quo; that the Acquis ratchet is tightening, and with QMV, those who are net contributors will be out voted regularly.

Those who urge you to vote remain cannot tell you where the EU will be in a decade, they can't even tell you where it will be in 5 years time. I will be voting for Brexit. If there is going to be change, I'd rather be controlling where it takes us on the outside.

If there is going to be change, I'd rather be controlling where it takes us on the outside.
Perfect.

QofF, that is such a poor argument. I'm not a Trump supporter myself but neither am I a supporter of Blair, Kinnock or Major all of whom back remain. This isnt about personalities, this is about the the future of the country and whether or not you want to be part of an ever closer union with the rest if the EU or whether you prefer for UK to regain it's independence. For me, the latter is the only choice but there is plenty of information about for the OP to make her own mind up.

Brokenbiscuit, I don't believe for a moment that the Brexiteers who are banging on about immigration from the EU are eager to increase numbers from Asia, Africa or the Caribbean. No matter what they say... Wrong. We need to recruit talent from all over the world. I dont care where people are from; if they have the skills we need, I welcome them here. I have always supported the idea of what is generally referred to as an Australian based points system.

Turning away a qualified Indian doctor or Australian teacher or Canadian scientist .... because as members of the EU we must accept an unlimited number of Bulgarian Big Issue sellers or Romanian car valets is crass stupidity.

We need to obtain the skills the country needs from those throughout the world - not just from the other 27 EU member states.

Turning away a qualified Indian doctor or Australian teacher or Canadian scientist .... because as members of the EU we must accept an unlimited number of Bulgarian Big Issue sellers or Romanian car valets is crass stupidity.

See, that kind of post makes me want to vote REMAIN. I don't think we are turning away qualified Indian doctors or Australian teachers or Canadian Scientists. (And I'm not that bothered about white, western nations anyway). We are turning away those in need from elsewhere in the world because those in medium-low need are flocking here.

However, I think I am coming to the sad realisation that voting LEAVE is not going to make any better for those in need coming here. In terms of economically, I am fairly certain remaining is better.

Do you seriously believe that Brexiteers would send the Poles home and welcome in more Nigerians and Pakistanis?

All backed by those who receive EU funds:

So we should disregard all those who are backed with EU funding like MEPs Farage & Daniel Hannan?

Do you seriously believe that Brexiteers would send the Poles home and welcome in more Nigerians and Pakistanis?

Are you trying to suggest that Leave voters are racist? Is your argument for Remaining so weak that you must resort to trying to smear the opposition?

However, let's play along with your absurd suggestion. If Leave voters were truly racist, as you seem to suggest, they would be backing Remain, so the migrants to the UK were confined to the 27 EU member states whose racial composition is equivalent to that of the UK. But they're not are they- they want to welcome people from throughput the world who have the skills that the UK needs - regardless of race. People like my child's partner.

I would say that these 'Brexiteers' as you call them are a damn sight more inclusive that you seem to be. Perhaps you need to get out of your little bubble and meet some real life Leave voters, you'll find we come in various racial types, sexes, ages, occupations, social classes and any other descriptors you would like to try to label us with.

And secondly, if you were not totally ignorant of international and human rights law, you would also know that nobody is 'sending anybody home'. The Uk is the home for these 'Poles' that you would like us to remove. The live here under the permanent protection of the Vienna Convention and Human Rights Act - in or out of the EU, because the UK is a civilised country that discharges its international and moral obligations..

So we should disregard all those who are backed with EU funding like MEPs Farage & Daniel Hannan?

Of course not. Nigel and Dan are begging us to make them redundant. Someone has to shift the shit out of the sty - they are performing a public service.

MerryMarigold, noone knows what will happen with the economy. However, should we remain, we will be paying more into the EU as they desperately need us to plug the gaps in their budget caused by the migrant crisis. The European Parliament has passed a resolution demanding greater spending, the announcement of the details has been delayed till after the referendum. I wonder why.

Furthermore, we will also need to pay more as other poor countries gain accession. We will need to pay for their infrastructures to be developed.

EU tax is also on the cards, it has recently been approved by EU Parliament’s economic and monetary affairs committee. This is additional tax deducted from your pay packet on top of your current tax and NI contributions.

In short, staying in the EU wont improve our finances on a nationwide or on a personal basis. In fact, it will bleed us dry.

Norway pays fully into the EU. We 'welcome' our fair share of economic and war-displaced migrants.

But we have no say at all in the laws made by Brussels, which EU members do. But we must still abide by them.

That's what the UK will become if we 'Brexit'.

Norway pays fully into the EU.
It doesn't. It pays to be a member of the European Economic Area - not the EU. Norway, is considerable smaller in economic terms than the UK is. We will negotiate our own terms.

We 'welcome' our fair share of economic and war-displaced migrants.
But historically we have chosen which economic migrants to admit to live in the EU. While we remain in the EU we MUST accept any of the 550million EU citizens who wishes to live here - i.e. mass uncontrolled migration into the UK from other EU countries. We have always accepted true refugees and will continue to do so - that is not relevant to the question of our EU membership.

But we have no say at all in the laws made by Brussels, which EU members do. But we must still abide by them.

We have very little say now. We have )I think) 17% of the votes in the Council of Europe - and we're the 5th largest economy in the world. Our influence within the EU will further diminsh when new countries join the EU and dilute our voting rights. We cannot even secure zero VAT rate on Tampax - that's how ineffectual we are.within the EU

That's what the UK will become if we 'Brexit'.
Brexit means returning to a sovereign, self-determining nation that can
Make its own laws
Trade with the world
Defend itself
Control its borders
Raise its own taxes )and zero rate Tampax!)

I can't wait.

QofF, that is such a poor argument
My statement is in response to the OP specifically saying she doesn't have time to look at the arguments. If that is the case then looking at who is involved on both sides could help decide. obviously the best thing is to read more and inform yourself. And of course it's not about personalities - I'm not saying who would you rather have a beer with -but I do think it's relevant that when Gove was pressed on this in the debate the other evening he came up with not one single economist or world leader that thought Brexit was a good idea. So if I had no time to look into the issues then that to me would be relevant. And I am not just talking about JP Morgan and their ilk.

Norway pays fully into the EU. We 'welcome' our fair share of economic and war-displaced migrants.

But we have no say at all in the laws made by Brussels, which EU members do. But we must still abide by them.

That's what the UK will become if we 'Brexit'.

Totally agree - and the same will go for trade.

Is the pressure to reduce immigration so great, that those from Africa/ Asia/ Caribbean are finding it ridiculously difficult? Is a result of being in the EU that we can't offer refuge to Syrians? Would exiting Europe help others in the world have more access to the UK?

I think so.

I'm very 'liberal lefty' and this is one of the reasons I'm unashamedly voting 'out'.

There's really no need to feel embarrassed of that line of thought.

Schroedinger's immigrant: simultaneously stealing your job and lazing about all day on benefits.

Do you seriously believe that Brexiteers would send the Poles home and welcome in more Nigerians and Pakistanis?

You don't think that a revised immigration policy post-EU would grant skilled-migrant and compassionate visas to migrants from wherever in preference to minimum wage workers from a Europe-only pool?

The issuing of compassionate visas has nothing to do with immigration policy. People are refused visas on compassionate grounds because they are judged, often wrongly, to be at risk of overstaying ie becoming illegal immigrants.

I think it's more likely that attitudes harden - the current focus on immigrants as being the source of all evil (Schroedinger's immigrant) will have long term impacts on attitudes towards foreigners.

I'd just add that there has been a lot of talk recently about emulating Australian immigration policies, from the same people who claim that a list brexit UK would be nicer to refugees.

Let's not forget that Australian policies have led to the setting up off-shore concentration camps for asylum seekers ...

That should of course read "post-brexit UK" (maybe my iPad is secretly in the remain camp)

The issuing of compassionate visas has nothing to do with immigration policy. People are refused visas on compassionate grounds because they are judged, often wrongly, to be at risk of overstaying ie becoming illegal immigrants.

I think it is affected by the prevailing mood.