Talk me out of Brexit. I am ashamed of myself!

[MerryMarigold]

So, all along I have been very against Brexit. To be truthful, I don't know enough about it all, but I felt like it's an isolationist policy, a selfish policy and the political leaders at the forefront (self serving in the extreme) were enough to put me off in a big way. I also have very many friends from Europe.

However, I have recently had pause for thought and wanted to share this with you. Two stories of people 'on the ground' that have made me have a rethink.

a) A good friend of mine who moved here from the Caribbean when he was 15, with his siblings and Mum. His Mum worked here, has an NI number, a pension and an NHS number but relocated back to the Caribbean for retirement. She is now old and needs more help so has come back here, but she can't get residency, despite all her family being here. The Home Office have basically said there one remit is to reduce immigration, so this is why it's so much more problematic than it would be a few years ago.

b) A friend of my Mum's recently died of cancer. She was young. Her Mum lives in Ghana. It was extremely difficult for her to get a visa to come for the funeral. All sorts of hoops needed to be jumped through. I don't know the ins and outs, except that at a very difficult time, her daughter's death and funeral, she had a very hard time making it over here.

So, my thoughts are now that with the influx of European migrants, are we actually becoming more isolationist? Are we so focussed on Europe that we are reducing those coming from other countries who may be in greater need? Is the pressure to reduce immigration so great, that those from Africa/ Asia/ Caribbean are finding it ridiculously difficult? Is a result of being in the EU that we can't offer refuge to Syrians? Would exiting Europe help others in the world have more access to the UK?

I am well aware that if we ever do exit the EU that it is not suddenly going to be easier for the rest of the world to enter the UK, certainly with this government, but the principle is there. That we can be more open if we are less open to Europe. Possibly. Maybe. I don't know.

I don't have time to read every last article on this subject so I was wondering if you can help me feel more positive about staying. I really would prefer to vote to stay, but not if the effect is to close us to everyone except Europe.

Residence or naturalisation is usually based on having lived in a country for a few years MrsB. So the majority will be fine.

I.e. Anybody who has clocked up enough years of residence legally under existing rules will qualify and do work status etc will be immaterial.

Hmmm...I'm starting to think that the big problem with Brexit is that they haven't thought things through. There is very little clarity on what would happen. I guess this is difficult for them as they are not the Government (and looking at those leaders who support it, I hope they never will be).

I think, based on the immigration figures, on balance I am against leaving the EU. There will be so much instability and it's so unpredictable what may happen. It may be worth a risk if times were harder, but why rock the boat when things are going well?

One of my DC has a university place in Europe for September. It is a course that cannot be done in the UK. UK offers have been rejected in case of this one so if it fell through it would be a disaster.

I know this is a purely personal reason for concern, but naturally it is a worry for us.

"The leave campaign (just like the stay campaign) are not a party. They're not presenting a manifesto. They're just arguing that the range of choices available out of the EU are preferable to those available in it."

Just5mins Yes I am aware they are not a party that was my point!! my question is how will they enforce it/ carry it out ?

Given that Cameron is pro staying what will Brexit do to make sure their suggestions are implemeted?

'Eastern Europeans, Polish, Czech, Latvians, Ukrainian, Bulgarian people are welcome here with open arms, given a free house and all the jobs and given advice in how to work the British benefits system'.

Most of them come to work. They are not given a 'free house.' 'All the jobs.' Lol. They take the jobs AND rip the piss out of the benefit system. Cripes.

3littlefrogs. I think it is different circs with students. She would maybe need a student visa, that's all. However, if we do make a decision to leave then she'll have plenty of time before anything actually kicks in. She'd probably be finished by the time there was an actual impact on here, from what people have said (except that the pound may dip drastically and you'll get a lot less bang for your buck).

Emily, I know quite a few who work low income jobs and are on housing benefit as well. But they work really hard, and rental prices are ridiculous.

Residence or naturalisation is usually based on having lived in a country for a few years MrsB. So the majority will be fine.

This isn't really true. Naturalisation is a privilege not a right. And the right to remain will depend on what national immigration law says (in the absence of a specific agreement) - in the UK this could conceivably lead to any EU immigrant earning less than £35k being required to leave, as is the case for some non-EU immigrants now.

Sapphire Currently I think the UK gets its way in about 70% of EU decisions.

I read this article which indicates the UK doesn't do so well..UK is outvoted disproportionately more than any other member (BUT Germany is next so don't read too much into it!). The article is a bit long but a really good read actually - doesn't feel like it has an agenda to convince the reader one way or the other. My thanks to a Facebook friend for sharing it.

Thanks, Hovercraft. That's the impression I'm getting. Lots of possibilities, but v few probabilities.

Maybe my nirvana will come after voting...

This isn't really true. Naturalisation is a privilege not a right.

In practice, if you fulfil the criteria, you get it.

Most of them come to work. They are not given a 'free house.' 'All the jobs.' Lol. They take the jobs AND rip the piss out of the benefit system. Cripes.

To be fair, it is perfectly possible (because of low NMW and high rents) for two people to work hard at FT jobs and still be entitled to both tax credits and housing benefit, regardless of nationality.

Personally I think it's rather rude to be unpleasant to people because they are underpaid, or even to object to them being in the UK, but I do get bored of reading that workers can't be benefit recipients.

adagio that's a pretty balanced article, but regarding UK influence in the EU, the problem is that voting statistics don't really tell you all that much. Most of the UK influence is wielded before voting even takes place, in shaping up agendas and proposals. The UK is also keen to register disagreement for domestic reasons (to show that it "stands up to Brussels"), while other countries like France prefer to show the appearance of consensus. "Influence" is nebulous and difficult to measure, but several studies have found that the UK was perceived within Brussels to be one of the most influential EU members.

I think the probabilities of Remain are that we'll be permanently stuck with a creaking, failing EU and all its problems, without being able to change it. Cameron's attempts at reform didn't work and there is dissatisfaction across the EU. Far right parties are gaining ground and the Euro isn't getting on well. The EU's plan is to become a superstate and it already has its own flag, anthem, celebration day etc. Britain will continue to be outvoted whenever it disagrees with a proposed new law, and our laws will continue to be replaced by EU laws until they've all disappeared.

The facts about Leave are that we get our laws made by those who we have elected democratically, who put this country's interests first, and whom we're able to get rid of. We'll have a much leaner and faster system than having to make sure politicians from 27 other countries think what we're doing is OK. We'll be able to spend our own taxpayers money here, on our priorities, instead of giving billions to the EU and them "generously" giving some of it back and telling us how to spend it. Wages will go up so that people are paid properly and not undercut. We can welcome refugees and economic migrants as much as we wish, and regain the final say in this. We'll be free to make our own trade deals around the world, instead of waiting for a weakening EU to do it.

Far right parties are gaining ground

Sadly true. Look how mainstream UKIP's political platform has become in just a few years.

Luhhhvgł

Why would you be ashamed of yourself?!

Sorry about my last post... must not leave phone near toddler

I thought you were posting in Icelandic!

I unfortunately have nothing valuable to add as I'm as torn as you are OP. I'm place marking on this thread though to come back and have a good read of all the posts once the DC are in bed. Might help me make up my mind...

and our laws will continue to be replaced by EU laws until they've all disappeared

Rhetoric like that really puts me off.

Some of the EU laws, eg. environmental and human rights ones are actually 'better' than we would come up with.

Wages will go up so that people are paid properly and not undercut. We can welcome refugees and economic migrants as much as we wish, and regain the final say in this.

In everyone's dreams!!

I really do think we need to keep giving it a go until it's not working. Why fix what ain't broke? It really ain't at the moment.

My worry really was EU immigration at the expense of the rest of the world but can see that is not true now.