Talk me out of Brexit. I am ashamed of myself!

[MerryMarigold]

So, all along I have been very against Brexit. To be truthful, I don't know enough about it all, but I felt like it's an isolationist policy, a selfish policy and the political leaders at the forefront (self serving in the extreme) were enough to put me off in a big way. I also have very many friends from Europe.

However, I have recently had pause for thought and wanted to share this with you. Two stories of people 'on the ground' that have made me have a rethink.

a) A good friend of mine who moved here from the Caribbean when he was 15, with his siblings and Mum. His Mum worked here, has an NI number, a pension and an NHS number but relocated back to the Caribbean for retirement. She is now old and needs more help so has come back here, but she can't get residency, despite all her family being here. The Home Office have basically said there one remit is to reduce immigration, so this is why it's so much more problematic than it would be a few years ago.

b) A friend of my Mum's recently died of cancer. She was young. Her Mum lives in Ghana. It was extremely difficult for her to get a visa to come for the funeral. All sorts of hoops needed to be jumped through. I don't know the ins and outs, except that at a very difficult time, her daughter's death and funeral, she had a very hard time making it over here.

So, my thoughts are now that with the influx of European migrants, are we actually becoming more isolationist? Are we so focussed on Europe that we are reducing those coming from other countries who may be in greater need? Is the pressure to reduce immigration so great, that those from Africa/ Asia/ Caribbean are finding it ridiculously difficult? Is a result of being in the EU that we can't offer refuge to Syrians? Would exiting Europe help others in the world have more access to the UK?

I am well aware that if we ever do exit the EU that it is not suddenly going to be easier for the rest of the world to enter the UK, certainly with this government, but the principle is there. That we can be more open if we are less open to Europe. Possibly. Maybe. I don't know.

I don't have time to read every last article on this subject so I was wondering if you can help me feel more positive about staying. I really would prefer to vote to stay, but not if the effect is to close us to everyone except Europe.

And employment law that protects us all better at work.

Rhetoric like that really puts me off.

It's not rhetoric I'm afraid. EU laws trump UK laws and we can't repeal them. As the right-wing rises in the EU we just don't know what sort of laws they'll introduce in the future, and we can't vote out the EU. Of course, it's fair to say the EU has made some very positive legislation. But I don't think it's necessarily true that it's better than what we'd have achieved outside the EU. It's impossible to say either way, as the UK provided certain workers rights and womens rights independently of the EU and before the EU, and the UK would probably be a rather more forward-looking place now if it wasn't bound to the outdated EU.

Are you comfortable with the idea of a United States of Europe?

Are you comfortable with the idea of a United States of Europe?

I'm pretty sure the OP knows that we're not heading for a united states of Europe. The UK has consistently pushed for a wider but shallower union, notably by pushing for east european accession. I think that would be rather difficult to push back now.

Unfortunately one of the main principles of the EU is ever-closer union, which means wider and deeper, not shallower.

Unfortunately one of the main principles of the EU is ever-closer union, which means wider and deeper, not shallower

I'd recommend a bit of light reading, because people often talk about "ever closer union" without any historical or political context:

www.iiea.com/ftp/Publications/2016/IIEA_Ever%20Closer%20Union%20paper_2016.pdf

Something I saw today:

Why fix what ain't broke? It really ain't at the moment.

It is for a lot of people. Wages are hugely depressed. Would you like to be on NMW?

Also we have an opt-out from ever closer union under the renegotiation.

Nothing's been signed though with the 'renegotiation' though. It hasn't been sanctioned by the powers that be has it? It could all be pie in the sky.

I think it's highly likely that the "renegotiation" is, as you say, pie in the sky. The so-called opt-outs and vetos, assurances that things won't happen.

Winterbiscuit UK has a veto on anything Treaty related..

I roll my eyes whenever I hear about our so-called 'opt-outs'. They're never what they are billed as and we always get forcibly negotiated down to a near-meaningless concession on everything.

Does the veto count for anything? As I understand it, we veto an awful lot which is then....totally ignored.

They know as well as the rest of us that it's not going to happen.

Maybe not yet, but at some point I expect there will be "incentives" (money of course) to "encourage" the UK to go along more fully with the EU plan. And as the Remain side are keen on money, they'll probably fall for it.

As I understand it, we veto an awful lot which is then....totally ignored.

Exactly. It's so naive to think that will change.

Less of the eye rolling - glad you know all the 28 states so intimately Myhovercraft, I'll rest easy now on your reassurance....

I roll my eyes whenever some Brexiter flogs that dead horse "ever closer union".

Nevermind that. Worry about the ever-closer accession of Turkey.

ThroughThickAndThin01 absolutely. e.g. no tax legislation can be passed unless everyone agrees. Under EU law there are areas where there Qualified Majority Voting and areas where there are vetoes.

treaty changes can be vetoed.

"Under the principle of conferral, the Union shall act only within the limits of the competences conferred upon it by the Member States in the Treaties to attain the objectives set out therein. Competences not conferred upon the Union in the Treaties remain with the Member States."

In case you're super interested: here is the Treaty itself! data.consilium.europa.eu/doc/document/ST-6655-2008-REV-8/en/pdf
Imagine having to renegotiate everything in that ....

And as the Remain side are keen on money, they'll probably fall for it.

TBF, the Leave side get quite excited by money too. You know, all the money that we'll save from leaving the EU that we can then use to pay for the NHS/defence/pensions/everything else.

It must be like the Magic Porridge Pot, this money. The gift that keeps on giving.

Nevermind that. Worry about the ever-closer accession of Turkey.
Why?

NB the UK sometimes votes against EU legislation and loses, as it is not in the majority. That is for legislation for which the UK itself has signed up to Qualified Majority Voting. It is incorrect to state that the UK's vetoes are not respected.

See below for a nuanced view - the UK has supported 97% of the EU's legislation but it is true to say it is outvoted (though as you can see its on 3% of the proposed legislation!)

"New report shows strong impact of a possible Brexit on EU politics
The UK is the most outvoted Member State in the EU Council. However, it has supported more than 97% of the EU laws adopted in the last 12 years, a new report published by VoteWatch Europe shows.

The analysis looked at the role played by the UK’s Government and its MEPs in shaping the EU policy over the past 12 years. According to the study, the UK seems to have diminished its influence in the European Parliament in recent years, as a result of self-distancing of some of its own party delegations from the EU’s mainstream political families, as well as due to the results of the latest EU elections in the UK. Nevertheless, UK MEPs have captured many powerful agenda-setting positions, such as rapporteurships of key EU legislation and EP committee chairmanships

Professor Simon Hix, chairman and co-founder of VoteWatch Europe, explained that “the British opposition to EU decisions occurred especially on budget, foreign policy and foreign aid. Nevertheless, the UK was not the most oppositional government on several important issue areas: internal market, legal affairs, transport, environment, and fisheries”.

The data shows that Sweden, the Netherlands and Denmark are UK’s closest allies in the EU Council and would lose an important ally if Brexit occurs.

The study also argues that the main losers of Brexit among EU’s stakeholders are those that promote less regulatory burden for EU businesses and stronger protection of copyright. Last but not least, a possible Brexit would also push the remaining EU governments to pay more to EU’s coffer.

Click to check the full report’s facts and figures."

• See more at: www.votewatch.eu/blog/special-report-would-brexit-matter-the-uks-voting-record-in-the-council-and-the-european-parliament/#sthash.kR2GVf6X.dpuf

winterbiscuit just to clarify again that it is incorrect to state the UK vetoes are ignored, see above.

"Why?" Sapphire ?

Have you seen who is running Turkey? The social issues? The oppression of women? The treatment of the Kurds? The porous border with Syria? The disgraceful human rights record? Their accession to the EU will bring about an international emergency.

Would you like to be on NMW?

I wouldn't mind. I am looking for a job at the moment. Sadly they've all ben taken by Romanians .

Actually, I'm really fussy about hours, so it will take me a while, but yes, I'd be happy with NMW if the hours worked.

Why do we need to be worried about Turkey? Because they are a Muslim country? It could be a nice balance to the 'far right' which everyone is so worried about.

The EU is never going to be a United States of Europe. For a start, we all speak different languages. In fact, the language which schools are starting to push more recently is Mandarin!!

But even if it was headed that way (more than superstitious fears - real, actual evidence), then we can exit later.