Latest immigration stats released & they are gigantic again

[BritBrit]

The final immigration stats from the ONS before the EU referendum have been released with immigration for 2015 at 630,000.

-630,000 immigrants came to the UK
-Net immigration was 333,000 up 20,000
-EU immigration was 270,000
-Romanian & Bulgarian immigration tripled in 2015
-42% of EU immigrants did not have a job when coming to the UK
-EU immigrants took more new British jobs (224,000) than British workers (185,000)

www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/populationandmigration/internationalmigration/bulletins/migrationstatisticsquarterlyreport/may2016

Whether that happens or not I don't really care - we just need to get out...

I suggest that you really should care - whether in or out of the EU, Britain will always be in Europe, and will always be directly affected by Europe's political and economic turmoils.

I don't know which bit you don't understand
On the point you made - if it may become more cost effective for the UK to import stuff from other parts of the world? Or maybe manufacture our own things? Will Europe really want us to stop importing from them? To lose our business? With the state of the Euro can they afford to do that?
We can just not have a free trade agreement with them - yes their products will increase in price (pity I like my Saint Agur) but then we are free to look at other parts of the world. As in that video - Switzerland bought into a free trade agreement - which meant they had to take the other stuff - we could try going it alone for a while - I think we will be ok but noone really knows what will happen.
Was it the ' Net contributor' bit - no-one I have heard argues that this isn't the case - we put money into the EU and get back some but less than we put in (hard to know with all the figures being bandied about I think we get about 2/3 back) - so we are effectively subsidising poorer EU countries - they get more out than they put in. Supposedly to improve eg their infrastructure so that they will become more prosperous, so we have a more prosperous EU. How that fits with propping up Greece so it can remain in the Euro ...I don't understand - but I will say I feel sorry for the people of Greece. They are getting a pretty rough time with having to cope with all the migrants and the austerity measures. All because the books were basically fiddled to allow them into the Euro.

chalalala what I mean by that comment is that I hope - would very much like - to see a completely reformed, more democratic EU. But I do think it is wishful thinking.
I don't think in or out of the EU we can make that change - I think there is slightly more chance if we are out. But if that doesn't happen I think we have done what we can. (What I mean by 'I don't care')
But I am not voting out on that basis - I am voting out (again) because it is not democratic.
People in the world (in this country even) have died to be able to vote - to escape communism, to escape dictators, to live in a democracy.
The same for protecting worker's rights - they are not down to the EU people in this country have died for the workers rights we had pre Europe (at one point it was illegal to be a member of a trade union - look into the history of trade unions and the formation of the labour party and also the actions of philanthropists - people like Robert Owen etc). We chose to form the NHS. And our welfare state. So tell me again why we need the EU to look after worker's rights?

myhover do you know about the steel for the new Forth Road Bridge?
I suggest you look into it ....as a starting point
www.theguardian.com/uk/scotland-blog/2013/jun/26/scotland-forthbridge-queensferry

And I said I am known as a pessimist ....

And maybe also interesting for this thread (just posted it elsewhere) - saw this one today:

How trade deals work: HINT if you are trying to negotiate a trade deal with a larger country you will come off worse.

www.facebook.com/StrongerInCampaign/videos/1176877825685873/?pnref=story

(at one point it was illegal to be a member of a trade union)

One of my great great relatives - on a BS charge because they challenged the establishment i.e How come same criteria wasn't used say on the masons? Came back after doing time died in the poor house.

This is where the 'but we had such a great system before' for me falls down.

This is 2016 and we have zero hour contracts, there are the processing costs for tips etc by restaurant chains, the only highlight this year was the sports direct CEO getting summoned to MP's but that was a mission.

This is exactly why I fear Brexit, there is no, I will put it in hyphens 'left/central' leaning brexit only a pro business right wing option on the table.

Gove, boris, IDS, UKIP etc are they suddenly going to turn all altruistic? Are they going to start building houses, infrastructure, invest in the NHS, wack up taxes, make an effort to address the tax evasion and avoidance that costs me 4 times what the EU does?.

The sad thing will be the poisoned chalice that whatever party or coalition will have to take on at the end of this governments tenure should they brexit.

nearly

1. The vast majority of foreign born doctors as I understand it are not from the EU -they are from eg India - so controlled point based immigration wouldn't prevent them coming.
2. The 5.5 million figure from British citizens living permanently overseas - is that in the EU? - I read the figure was more like 1.2 million and we have 3 million EU citizens living in the UK.
3. Immigrants being less likely to claim benefits - what benefits are they? Does it include state pensions -which is almost half the total welfare bill - but most of those people have contributed in their lifetime. Maybe looking at other individual benefits would be a valid argument. (link to original data not working on the image)

4/5. I have read articles that disagree with that - I think all researchers agree that is almost impossible to weigh up all the ins and outs. And seeing as we don't actually really know how many migrants there are in the UK (with most data apparently taken from airports) - I would take that with a pinch of salt It is statistics - damn statistics. Deciding on what data to use or not, who to ask etc can greatly impact the results. And the wording used the impression. I know from being a research scientist that you have to look at the methodology in detail and also look at the wording used. There is a really good eg but I can't recall it just now. What I can recall is something that involved careful wording. Tony Blair was accused (by Claire Short iirc) of having decided with George Bush many months before they were going to go to invade Iraq. In his rebuttal TB said something like 'we did not agree a date to invade Iraq'. So possibly they could have agreed to invade in April - GB could have said on the 10th and TB said we prefer the 11th but they couldn't agree on a date and decided to do the exact details later. So TB definitely wasn't lying ...but he maybe was being economical with the truth... I think you have to look at as much hard indisputable fact as possible and make your mind up...not propaganda from either side. By all means read it and then look around the figures - what evidence backs it up. I can't see how the EU is truly democratic or will become democratic as things stand. Therefore I will vote out. Breaking the things you are describing are happening now in the UK - why do you expect that to improve because we remain in the EU - if it was that wonderful we wouldn't have those now -would we? We can get rid of the current government in 4 yrs - what we need I think is a better opposition -we can change that in time However I don't think we will get another opportunity to get out of the EU and back to something like true democracy.

mother I posted lots of links about why the EU isn't democratic - and you said you weren't going to bother reading them...
The point is OUR government we can change - and their actions are limited by the fact we are a democracy. The Labour party are in a bit of a mess -same could have been said about the Tories in the 90s - they got their act together. Labour's biggest problem with becoming new Labour and becoming more right wing than the Tories - so there wasn't a true opposition - I don't think Corbyn is the leader to be prime minister but he is bringing labour back to its socialist roots. Which can only be a good thing.
Otherwise no reason why a new party can't be formed - that is how we have the Labour party in the first place. This will all take time but can happen.

The largest party European Parliament Group is the EPP - which is centre right...not centre left...and is made up of lots of 'Christian' parties. (MEPs from the national party join together as a European Parliament Group)

I don't expect them to improve as at the moment the nation is gripped by scrounger/grafter hysteria. I expect working conditions to rapidly deteriorate with the right wing free market types that are heading up leave.

We can get rid of the current government in 4 yrs

People keep saying this but all I see for Nu-labour/Grotesque libdem/tory Coalition/Tories are general right wing economic policies PFI to Post office privatizations, to rip off nuclear reactors.

I hope that the Ref has fired people up to take more notice of politics and make our mps more accountable.

I agree wholeheartedly on needing more decent opposition,.

To me the constituencies that count etc means we will just get more of the same as parties feel the need to move to the right to win a majority. Where I live it is absolutely pointless to vote this won't change wether we are in or out of Europe.

I hope that the Ref has fired people up to take more notice of politics and make our mps more accountable.

^ completely agree with you BreakingDad

It certainly will be if we brexit and Scotland votes out in another indyref. In that scenario, there will be NO opposition to speak of.

The British, including the English, are used to political swings and a fresh government after no more than a few terms. I think things would settle back into this.

mother the links thing I understand -there is a lot of conflicting info and propaganda from both sides - but I tend to take a point made and then try and find facts to back it up - and decide what to believe- but it is time consuming.
breaking the European parliament party in majority - the EPP - is centre right - not centre left. And made up of mainly 'christian' national parties. (National parties have to join forces with other parties to form EU parliament parties -and there are rules on forming a party) If you want left wing the EU is not the place to find it either...
I agree about the pointless to vote argument - but actually as I said upthread and other threads - even if your chosen party doesn't get elected the fact they exist influences the actions of the elected government.
Then again I understand not feeling represented - I have lived at different times in two areas that are a different demographic to the most of the rest of a council area (different parties). Eg the council will 'always' have a Purple party majority, the area I lived in would vote Pink - or if they were unhappy with Pink maybe Orange ...but likely never Purple. What I found was more money was spent in other areas and any cut backs or other unpopular things - eg a new landfill site or a sewage works- they would try and dump on that area - cos all they had the majority to get it through and they wouldn't lose a seat - no matter how the voters voted... and that is on a council level. But how you can feel more represented by something on the scale of the EU, with so many different interests?

If you want left wing the EU is not the place to find it either...

To me that doesn't seem so reflected in the EU policies, and also right and left is not always a simple comparison across the country. As though they right wing they have strong worker protection.

It varies. Sometimes trends can be noticed, where quite a few governments swing left, or swing right. But most tend to be left or right centre.

On another thread, it seemed apparent that the European left was much further left than the US left. So, it is a matter of perspective.

Unlucky - there's a very strong left wing in the EP. The Socialists &Democrats are the second largest group and GUE who are the radical left had also seen some major increases. I would say more that EP decision making tends towards the center because the EPP (centre right) and s&d are forced to make compromises to get a big enough majority.

Overall the Parliament is more fragmented than it has been in previous years, reflecting the populist movements around Europe, the bigger groups have had their majorities chipped away

European politics is more about consensus than opposition in any case - quite different to the bunfight we see in the UK, no jeering etc

EU (not "European") politics is grey, turgid and undemocratic.

British debates tend to be colourful and interesting.

wow winter.

i quite like how MEPs (apart from the Faragists of this world) are generally respectful to each other. there's no braying.

also the MEPs represent a much wider spectrum than the MPs in the UK parliament because it's proportional representation rather than first past the post.

and you have all the different nationalities, languages, personalities..

i suspect you have no idea what you're talking about