What's best for the next generation?

[HeckyWithTheGoodBear]

I really can't make up my mind on this one. It's the first time I've ever been able to vote (except from the last general election which I missed as I was in a postnatal daze and feel awful about as I can't complain about the Tories without feeling guilty) and it seems like this vote in particular is massively massively important - and ever so slightly overwhelming, and difficult as the two sides say specifically contradictory things.

Even in the official leaflet they put through my door, one side of the page said the EU costs us £++ and the other side said EU gave us £++. Most of us don't have economics/ politics PHD's so how is your average joe supposed to figure out who is telling the truth? I'm getting swayed every day.

But my main concern is what will be best for my baby DD, and any future children I go on to have. Lord knows the last generation has fucked everything up for me and my peers (in regards to housing, uni fees etc.). So what is the best decision for our children, IYO? Which decision means they are most likely to get a house, and a job, and a fair wage?

Quote from Telegraph article: Britain is most corrupt country on Earth, says Mafia expert Roberto Saviano

"If I asked you what is the most corrupt place on Earth you might tell me well it’s Afghanistan, maybe Greece, Nigeria, the South of Italy and I will tell you it’s the UK,” he said.

“It’s not the bureaucracy, it’s not the police, it’s not the politics but what is corrupt is the financial capital. 90 per cent of the owners of capital in London have their headquarters offshore.

“Jersey and the Cayman’s are the access gates to criminal capital in Europe and the UK is the country that allows it. That is why it is important why it is so crucial for me to be here today and to talk to you because I want to tell you , this is about you, this is about your life, this is about your government.

“Leaving the EU means allowing this to take place. It means allowing the Qatari societies, the Mexican cartels, the Russia Mafia to gain even more power and HSBC has paid £2 billion Euros in fines to the US government, because it confessed that it had laundered money coming from the cartels and the Iranian companies. We have proof, we have evidence.”

"I am fairly confident that the EU is not the only thing standing between me and my basic rights"

So, what do you think will protect your rights post-EU? Given that this government have already admitted to wanting to get rid of the Human Rights Act and their employment minister can't wait to be able to "cut red tape" i.e. workers rights.

The Lords might give it a go, but I wouldn't be surprised if we see the end of the Lords soon, given that they've stood against this government recently.

The people? I'm not seeing it - while the media keep on publishing stories designed to make people believe that the Human Rights Act is something for criminals and illegal immigrants, large parts of the population will probably be cheering as they sign away their rights.

So, who is going to stand up for your rights?

Much of the argument for Leave in this thread appears to be focused on the issue of free movement/immigration.

I thought that if the UK were to leave the EU, it would be most likely to take a stance similar to that of Norway. The Norwegians, although Norway is not a member state, still contribute a substantial sum to the EU in return for trade agreements - and as part of the EEA, Norway still has to be signed up to accept free movement/immigration.

I don't see how the immigration situation would be any different if we are "in" or "out".

"I don't see how the immigration situation would be any different if we are "in" or "out""

Illegal immigration might even get worse - The French put resources into policing the border in Calais because we're in Europe. Will they continue to do it if we leave?

I thought that if the UK were to leave the EU, it would be most likely to take a stance similar to that of Norway.

That would be the sensible thing to do, and I suspect what would happen in the end - it would allow the political class to "respect" the result of a Brexit vote while minimising its consequences as much as possible.

The problem is that the Leave campaign have decided (probably rightly so) that immigration was the only topic that could win them the referendum. Which forced them to take the position that Britain would not ask for a Norway-type deal - meaning leaving the single market, leaving the EEA. It's the only position consistent with their anti-immigration stance.

Given that this government have already admitted to wanting to get rid of the Human Rights Act and their employment minister can't wait to be able to "cut red tape" i.e. workers rights.

There will be enough people who'd be outraged by this that I don't think they'd stay in government much longer. If the EU was to do something that so many of us disagreed with, I don't suppose there would be very much we could do.

"There will be enough people who'd be outraged by this that I don't think they'd stay in government much longer"

They are already saying they want to get rid of the Human Rights Act, they've been talking about that for ages, and Priti Patel, employment minister is on record as saying she wants to "cut red tape".

Where is the outrage among the general population? I can't see it.

Where is the outrage among the general population? I can't see it.

Certainly on here, it comes up all the time.

If you are so keen on the Human Rights Act, where's the outrage at the actions of the EU?

It has entered into a people-trafficking deal whereby it has paid Turkey ^billion Euros to facilitate the return of migrants to a country that the UNHCR says is not a fir place of refuge. It does so after cursory asylum hearing lasting a hour or so and without proper legal representation or appeal routes. Can't see any great outrage about the Human Rights of those folks?

And another basic Human Right is the right to withdraw labour. The EU is presented as a protector of trade union and workers tights but the truth is very different. The EU insisted that collective bargaining by trades union was suspended in Portugal, Greece, Ireland and Italy as a condition of their bailouts. The European TUC acknowledges the EU is harmful to workers rights and warns that "cuts in salaries, cuts in public services and weakening of collective bargaining are all on the agenda".

Some trades union like RMT can see through this ridiculous Leftist claim that we must stay in the EU to protect workers rights and are recommending LEAVE. Some in the Firebrigade Union feel the same. Unite are campaigning against the EU's own TTIP while schizophrenically recommending we stay in the EU and be hammered with TTIP!

If you want to stay in the EU have the courage to say so, but don't try to pretend it uphold workers rights. It may have done once when the European Social Model was rolled out to ensure that, in the absence of a welfare state, every family had the means of working to provide their support, but that social initiative has long been replaced by the exploitation of Big Corpa - you, know, the same ones who are funding the REMAIN campaign.

It amuses me that socialists are contorting themselves into ridiculous positions to justify voting to stay in the EU on the recommendation of those great social paradigms, Goldman Sachs, JP Morgan, Citigroup and the hedge funds.

Blinkowl so you'd rather be ruled by legislation passed by EU officials that you have zero say or ability to elect or remove than British Members of parliament. Just absolute madness. A very dangerous course to willingly engage in. We should be fighting tooth and nail to revoke these laws. As for workers rights. If they revoked them rather than amended the tories would be out on there arse quicker than you could blink, regardless of territorial changes. It's called democracy. The very right to do so and the very same thing you wish to relinquish in the blind hope the Euro gang don't decide to do something similar. Or worse. After all, they're more or less untouchable when it comes to you and me..

you'd rather be ruled by legislation passed by EU officials

EU officials propose legislation but it's the democratically elected EU Council (heads of each EU state) & EU Parliament (MEPs directly elected by EU citizens) who adopt & endorse the laws.

EU officials propose legislation but it's the democratically elected EU Council (heads of each EU state) & EU Parliament (MEPs directly elected by EU citizens) who adopt & endorse the laws.

The whole idea of unelected EU officials 'proposing legislation' is utterly abhorrent. Legislation should only be proposed by a democratically elected Government and to satisfy the needs of its electorate.

The MEPs cannot initiate or throw out any proposed laws - it is only an amending body. That is not democratic.

There is no official Opposition in the EU. It is prohibited. It is undemocratic. It is a bureaucracy that you can never vote out of power.

The whole idea of unelected EU officials 'proposing legislation' is utterly abhorent'

Only to Brexiteers who compare the a EU to a state when under international law it's an international institution, not a state, & has more democratic controls than any other international institution. Politicians aren't legal experts & even in the UK the Law Commission & civil service undertakes research, makes recommendations & proposals & drafts laws.

Why should MEPs be so limited in their remit? The elected people in such an organisation should be at the head of what happens, not just there to rubber-stamp other people's ideas in a fake democracy.

Only to Brexiteers who compare the a EU to a state when under international law it's an international institution, not a state, & has more democratic controls than any other international institution.

I'm voting "out". I don't think the EU is a state. Neither do many others

What the organisational status of the EU has to do with the point about the genesis of legislation anyway, I can't see.

Without a doubt, Brexit for my dcs.

Despite the protestations of some of the Remainers, Turkey's accession is on the cards. These are excerpts from a BBC item on Erdogan . Can't link on phone.

Turkish President Recep Tayyip Erdogan has said women cannot be treated as equal to men, and has accused feminists of rejecting motherhood.
You cannot put women and men on an equal footing," he told a meeting in Istanbul. "It is against nature.
He also said feminists did not grasp the importance of motherhood in Islam.

On gaining accession, Turkey will be the largest nation in the EU population-wise. Why would I want to stay in an ever -closer union with a country like that? I have daughters.

I agree AnnaForbes. And am happy to suffer an economic "hit" in order to leave.

I don't believe the downturn would be too bad, if it happened.

The rebalancing of the labour market and any slight dip in housing prices would lead to a much more grounded economy, anyway.

Erdogan is abhorrent and his views entirely unacceptable. Entirely agreed.

But that's also one of the main reasons why Turkey has not joined the EU and will not join it for the foreseeable future.

EU treaties state that membership is only open to the states that "respect the values referred to in Article 2 and are committed to promoting them"

The values stated in Article 2 are:

"respect for human dignity, freedom, democracy, equality, the rule of law and respect for human rights, including the rights of persons belonging to minorities."

So until Turkey gets its act together not only about women but also about the Kurds and democracy, it's not going to happen.

"The whole idea of unelected EU officials 'proposing legislation' is utterly abhorent"

I am much more inclined to trust the judgement of EU officials than I would our own politicians, personally!

And anyone who thinks that a Leave vote will make any difference at all to immigration is sadly deluded. The only difference will be that the UK will no longer be represented in Europe, so will have no vote on any policy changes, which will still affect us because we will be bound by agreements in order to trade in Europe.

Won't it stop free movement of people from Europe to UK and being able to claim benefits and social housing to some extent? Also dip in house prices may help young people.

depends if the UK stays in the EEA (free-trade area), which is separate from the EU. If it does, then nothing will change about immigration.

Look at it this way: the old are overwhelmingly voting out, the young are voting in.

Why should MEPs be limited in their remit

So that they can't undermine their democratically elected national governments. EU Council (heads of governments) sets the EU agenda.

the old are overwhelmingly voting out

According to The Telegraph last week a poll showed pensioners & Tories are deserting Brexit.

www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/05/23/eu-referendum-poll-pensioners-tory-voters-and-men-are-deserting/