What's best for the next generation?

[HeckyWithTheGoodBear]

I really can't make up my mind on this one. It's the first time I've ever been able to vote (except from the last general election which I missed as I was in a postnatal daze and feel awful about as I can't complain about the Tories without feeling guilty) and it seems like this vote in particular is massively massively important - and ever so slightly overwhelming, and difficult as the two sides say specifically contradictory things.

Even in the official leaflet they put through my door, one side of the page said the EU costs us £++ and the other side said EU gave us £++. Most of us don't have economics/ politics PHD's so how is your average joe supposed to figure out who is telling the truth? I'm getting swayed every day.

But my main concern is what will be best for my baby DD, and any future children I go on to have. Lord knows the last generation has fucked everything up for me and my peers (in regards to housing, uni fees etc.). So what is the best decision for our children, IYO? Which decision means they are most likely to get a house, and a job, and a fair wage?

Throckenholt this thread is about what's best for the next generation. I'm assuming your half a vote for the over-60s was a tongue-in-cheek comment. In my experience it's the older voters who are giving the most thought to how to cast their vote, because they have the wisdom gained from a long life to understand there are many different factors to be borne in mind.

The oldest voter I've spoken to is 86, he's voting Leave because of his children, grandchildren and great-grandchildren.

I have been on zero hours contract & quite liked them (in last 5 yrs, I am now almost 50yo). If immigration had anything to do with zero hours contract maybe it was the 55% of immigration which is NOT from EU.

stepintothelightandleave There is as much democracy in the EU as there is in the UK. The Commission drafts laws at the request of member states (like our civil service). MEPs are directly elected (like our MPs) and have a full say over legislation before it becomes law. As does the Council of Ministers which is composed of our elected Ministers and who have to approve laws before they come into effect. So nothing is imposed. In fact the UK has voted in favour of 97% of EU laws that have been agreed in the past 12 years.

Iljikk, I didn't say zero hours contracts were due to immigration. I mentioned it to illustrate that employment changes have not all been positive. I too have worked on zero hours contracts - it's called consultancy work - and is fab for well paid self employed individuals who favour flexibility. You aren't seriously suggesting zero hours contracts are always a cause for celebration surely?

Prometheus - fair enough. Thank you for answering.

This thread has been really interesting thank you OP and everyone who has posted.

I'm so I the fence about it all I have splinters in my bum! I don't know what to believe in the press as everyone has their own agenda. I need to do much more research.

Auld yow grin re splinters that did make me lol

Thank you everyone who's posted! I am firmly in the 'leave' camp now thanks to everyone's well informed arguments.

Hecky, Leave is definitely the right choice for our dcs. My business might be hit by Brexit due to the nature of the work I do but tbh, I'll take the hit if need be to ensure my dcs grow up in a democracy.

Dapplegrey2 its the Bank of Englands Monetary Committee that is suggesting inflation will rise as a result of Brexit. As with everything it is a suggestion of what could happen not a definite. It is suggested if this rise happens it will affect everything including an increase in salary's.

DH agrees that a rise in inflation could also be seen as result of the Eurozone collapse and a vote to remain is simply delaying the inevitable. The Eurozone will collapse and if we are a main trading nation of the Eurozone and wrapped up in the EU when this happens then we are susceptible to be greatly affected. If we are independent and widen our trading capacity to the rest of the world we are more likely to increase our resistance to the inevitable crash.

Id also like to point out that all of this was suggested when we were asked to consider turning down the Euro! Some of the same politicians who are suggesting Brexit will result in 'brimstone and fire' are the same people who 15 years ago suggested we were mad for not entering the Eurozone. That not doing so would weaken the pound and the UK would never recover. In my opinion they couldn't have been more wrong and I am hugely relieved we held onto the £.

EU grants can still be applied for and some of the money we pay into to EU now will come back to us. This should pretty much equal out over time.

Scientific research and collaboration does and will still continue without EU support.

We will be no more at risk from terrorism than we already. We will still be a member of NATO and UN.

I am in no doubt a leave vote will hurt us initially. I am beginning to think getting out of the EU is a much better option. All of the retired people I have spoken to are voting to leave. These are in the majority business men and women who have been right about how the last recession has played out. They are very well informed and all voted to join in the 70's. Their vote is not for them. They says its to give their children and grandchildren a chance to rectify what they messed up.

I am 90% sure I will be voting to leave. The evidence for me is that the EU hasn't lived up to its claims. Growth in the EU is lower than the other major independent trading nations. Supporting poorer countries is restricting our ability to trade to the best of our ability with the rest of the world. The decisions being made in the EU are detrimental to our ability to support our countries workforce, business and social resources. The EU immigration numbers are restricting are ability to access the skilled workforce of the wider world particularly the common wealth countries. Not to mention the free access of everyone into the UK regardless of whether they are going to add to or drain our society. We have a good rate on employment and job creation compared to other EU countries. The development of London and the international influx of capital isn't driven by the EU and even if it does slow down a bit thats not a bad thing. The addition of the further countries into the EU shows no sign of abating and the past behavior of the EU shows that eventually these countries will join and be granted free movement at some point down the line. This is regardless of what is said by the EU now. They have done u-turns before. If EU countries are struggling with debt then the EU will carry them beyond a reasonable point to the detriment of the Eurozone (think France, Italy etc all have major financial problems that could blow. Not to mention the economic issues of Albania and the like). I believe Turkey is a real contender for EU membership and I'm not willing to take the risk!

This thread has been really informative and its good to have a sensible discussion.

Great post Jellyjiggles

Agree that this thread has been informative. For some, especially when considering the potential impact on future generations, the choice seems to come down to the lesser of two evils. For me, although I don't see a perfect golden future if we Leave, I find the prospect of being economically and politically shackled in the vice-like grip of ever-closer union far, far more scary.

I agree with Jellyjiggles I'm far more concerned about the instability of the Eurozone and even though we don't have the Euro we still had to pay £58million in contributions to help bail out Greece last year.

The Eurozone is like a stack of cards at the moment with economies such as Spain, Portugal, Italy all still very shaky if one of them implodes they will take everyone else in the EU with them. And I haven't even factored in all the recent accession countries or Turkey, Albania, Serbia who want to join.

If the EU was made up of politically and economically stable countries then remain would be much less of a risk but now the analogy is more like sharing a house and a joint bank account with people you don't really know with poor credit ratings, in deep debt, no savings, low earnings and lack of long term prospects. If they hit the buffers you will end up being held responsible for the whole she-bang

the analogy is more like sharing a house and a joint bank account with people you don't really know with poor credit ratings, in deep debt, no savings, low earnings and lack of long term prospects.

That's an analogy that I hadn't heard before. It's harsh, but it grabs my attention and makes me think of the risks of staying in. I think the "Leave Campaign" should hire you Turbinaria. They haven't said anything that cuts through all the guff quite so stringently as that one comment from you.

Apologies, the actual amount the UK contributed to the Greek bailout last year was £850 million.

Prom

we are one voice in 28 of course we cant get what we want and what we need, of course its not a democracy!

We are one voice in 28, soon to be expanded.

Our government represents US - in the UK, we cant have some watered down, little bit of a say with 28 other nations, all radically different to us, able to veto, and slow things down!

Boris Bin Trucks springs to mind!

Small change to London's Bin lorries, to try and save lives ( cyclists being hit) he came up against the EU, and it was vetoed by Italy and France.

Do you think this sort level of reach from the EU onto the streets of London is a good idea?
Do you think this is how stupid our government is, they cant make a decision on Bin Trucks?

the analogy is more like sharing a house and a joint bank account with people you don't really know with poor credit ratings, in deep debt, no savings, low earnings and lack of long term prospects

yes it is a good analogy.

blogs.lse.ac.uk/brexitvote/2016/05/27/dear-friends-this-is-why-i-will-vote-remain-in-the-referendum/

Boris Bin Trucks springs to mind!

do a little fact checking before making spurious claims. It's this kind of ill-informed nonsense that clouds the argument.

First it's not just bin lorries but all lorries. secondly the legislation will come into force in 2020 (or 2022; sources differ) having been (democratically) voted for by the EU parliament. It was France and Sweden who delayed the law coming into force sooner, as they felt their major manufacturers needed more time to adapt to the new laws.

In fact, it was Tories who tried to block the legislation here in the UK, as Boris said in 2014 when he was 'deeply concerned' at the Gov's attitude. However by 2016, when it suited his prime-ministerial ambitions, it was all the fault of the EU....

you can read more about it here here or even in the sun if you think the 'liberal media' are biased; or not, and just go on making fatuous statements that suit an anti-EU rhetoric about tea-bags and coffins.

In The Times today David Cameron says he thinks the UK should just put up with high immigration rates because of the economic benefits of the EU. as I've said before, for me having an extra £20 in my pocket a week does not make up for:

1. lack of affordable and the prospect that my dcs will never get on the housing ladder
2. not getting a GP appointment when I need one quickly
3. Much longer waiting times to see an NHS consultant/ hospital treatment
4. My dcs not getting places at our nearest school
5. Seriously overcrowded public transport especially in London 6)Living in an area with very transient populations where there are large numbers of houses of multiple occupation
6. When large amounts of taxpayers money is spent on interpreters/ helping migrant children learn English when they are cutting back on basic necessities in schools
7. The rise in far right parties and racism we are seeing due to British citizens losing out in all of the above due to mass uncontrolled immigration

I'm sure David Cameron will F* off as soon as the referendum is over to some cushy well paid post where he and his family will be insulated from the effects of his policies hence his love for remain and we the public will be left to suffer the consequences of his actions just as we did with Tony Blair

Oh I think Cameron will do a Kinnock................

Turbinaria the irony is, many of the things you mention will happen if we leave, and it's got nothing to do with immigration.

1. lack of affordable and the prospect that my dcs will never get on the housing ladder

This government are determined to sell off social housing and think that £400,000 is a reasonable price for a starter home. The housing crisis has been caused by successive governments instigating or selling off social housing without replenishing stock, and encouraging the trading of other people's homes for profit. This government is not going to stop house prices rising, in fact it is in the interests of their part donors and corporate sponsors if they do so, as many of them have property portfolios. Leaving the EU gives more power to the Tories to do as they want, and they are not interested in housing your DCs.

2. not getting a GP appointment when I need one quickly

This government are selling off the NHS. They will do it quicker if we leave the EU. Waiting times for you are not on their list of priorities. Selling the NHS off to the corporations is.

3. Much longer waiting times to see an NHS consultant/ hospital treatment

See above. When the NHS has been carved up and sold off, yo umay not even be eligible for the treatment without shelling out a load of money, never mind waiting for it.

4. My dcs not getting places at our nearest school

The Tories are trying to privatise the school system. Currently your DCs are at least guaranteed a place at a school with qualified teachers. Not for much longer if they get their way.

5. Seriously overcrowded public transport especially in London

London is overcrowded as that's it's a major city and where all the jobs are, not because of immigration. The diversity of London's population is one of it's strengths.

6)Living in an area with very transient populations where there are large numbers of houses of multiple occupation

Seriously, what is your problem? You do know you're being manipulated to think this stuff, right?

7. When large amounts of taxpayers money is spent on interpreters/ helping migrant children learn English when they are cutting back on basic necessities in schools

Immigrants contribute to the UK economy overall. Immigrants are less likely to be on benefits than UK born people. They come here, get jobs and pay taxes.

No money is spent in schools on interpreters. Children learn new languages very fast. I worked in a reception class where many children started with no English. They picked it up incredibly quickly, with no resources diverted from other DC - none. That's what children do. It didn't slow the learning of the other children down one bit.

8. The rise in far right parties and racism we are seeing due to British citizens losing out in all of the above due to mass uncontrolled immigration

No, the rise in far right parties and racism die to people like you who are so easily manipulated with the old divide and rule tactics.

*due to, not die to!!

Turbinatia, EU immigrants contribute more towards UK public services than they take. They are a net benefit.

So if your GP is overcrowded, the right people to blame are not the immigrants who are paying for the NHS, but the governments that have refused to put back this extra money into training more GPs, in spite of the many and long-standing warnings from the medical profession that there was a recruitment crisis coming up. Same goes for schools.

Without EU immigration, it would not be "£20 less in your pocket a week". It would be much less money all around to fund transports, education, the NHS, pensions, benefits. It would not be your pocket money that would suffer, it would be the most vulnerable in society.

blinkowl, yes, and I would add on house prices - the single biggest cause of unaffordability is arguably low interest rates and cheap credit, which have allowed people to take on bigger and bigger mortgages. Although of course this has been actively encouraged by successive governments, so it goes back to your point about policies.

One of the issues which has baffled me is this idea that the people already living in the UK ( whether indigenous or not) are so lazy, unmotivated, uneducated and unskilled that businesses have no option but to hire people from abroad, whether that be from the EU or elsewhere. I'm firmly of the view that isn't the case.

I agree. The demonisation of the British working class is beyond irritating, especially when it is done to justify exploiting others.