What's best for the next generation?

[HeckyWithTheGoodBear]

I really can't make up my mind on this one. It's the first time I've ever been able to vote (except from the last general election which I missed as I was in a postnatal daze and feel awful about as I can't complain about the Tories without feeling guilty) and it seems like this vote in particular is massively massively important - and ever so slightly overwhelming, and difficult as the two sides say specifically contradictory things.

Even in the official leaflet they put through my door, one side of the page said the EU costs us £++ and the other side said EU gave us £++. Most of us don't have economics/ politics PHD's so how is your average joe supposed to figure out who is telling the truth? I'm getting swayed every day.

But my main concern is what will be best for my baby DD, and any future children I go on to have. Lord knows the last generation has fucked everything up for me and my peers (in regards to housing, uni fees etc.). So what is the best decision for our children, IYO? Which decision means they are most likely to get a house, and a job, and a fair wage?

I think if we stay we will get crucified, EU will show their might and try and show us who is boss. The EU is one of the most corrupt undemocratic gangs ever - how do they get away with it? No one else would.

I don't believe everyone being in the EU is a good thing, the EU stifles everything and ties us up with beuracracy and red tape.

They need us more than we need them and they know that hence all the scare stories.

Excellent posts on this thread from Turbinara

One of the issues which has baffled me is this idea that the people already living in the UK ( whether indigenous or not) are so lazy, unmotivated, uneducated and unskilled that businesses have no option but to hire people from abroad, whether that be from the EU or elsewhere. I'm firmly of the view that isn't the case

This annoys me too.

The EU supplies plentiful cheap labour which depresses wages for the average British worker (confirmed to a House of Common Committee by Lord Rose, leader of the Britain Stronger In Europe campaign).

The EU also supplies ready-trained workers which means that UK business and industry does not have to spend money on training. Training budgets have been slashed. At our local Further Education College, all academic courses have been cut - just vocational courses left now, so if you wanted to take GCSEs or A levels in adulthood you no loner have that opportunity in my town.

All those organisations that used to proudly declare they were Investors in People are no longer engaged in that initiative - including parts of the Civil Service. The Civil Service College has closed.

A friend's daughter who already has a STEM degree applied for 3 years running to get onto a UK nursing course before she was successful - yet we are supposed to be short of nurses and our Health Authority has travelled to the Portugal, Spain and the Philipines to recruit.

This is neither fair on our own school-leavers, who could have expected to receive on-the-job training nor for the migrants whose home countries have youth unemployment levels running at up to 50% and who must leave their friends and families to find work in another country. Neither is it particularly moral to suck the well-educated and well- trained populations away from their home countries who invested in that training.

The EU supplies plentiful cheap labour which depresses wages for the average British worker

Yes. How many British workers are going to move to another EU country where wages would be only a fraction of what they earn here? The "free movement" ideal was created when the EU countries were relatively similar in their finances. This is no longer the case, and of course there will be more movement to better-off countries from poorer ones than vice versa, which unbalances the initial intention.

Free movement was originally intended to be the free movement of workers. You couldn't just pitch up in any EU country like 21,000 EU migrants did last year and then start looking for work. You were expected only to move to take up a job offer,

Of course, that was diluted by the ECJ in it's merciless march to inflict political union on every territory and citizen of the EU.

That's absolutely right Springing. I can't understand how any UK citizens could possibly think that such unlimited competition for jobs, housing, benefits, schooling, medical care et al could be a good thing? I try to get my head round the remain arguments for unlimited migration, but simply can't see the sense in them.

That's absolutely right Springing. I can't understand how any UK citizens could possibly think that such unlimited competition for jobs, housing, benefits, schooling, medical care et al could be a good thing? I try to get my head round the remain arguments for unlimited migration, but simply can't see the sense in them.

Oh, I met one of these elastic-Britainers at the weekend.

He was insisting that all migration from the EU benefitted the UK.

I said some migration did and was some did not.

He wasn't having that and kept insisting that all migration from the EU was beneficial.

So I asked him about my model migrant family - you remember, the man on minimum wage paying tax and VAT and his partner working part-time on minimum wage with 2 school age children. I asked him how they were benefitting the country when their health costs were a notional £8K per year and their school places were £8K a year plus their housing benefit and other in-work benefits.

At this question he went a kind of purple-colour, called me a racist and insisted that we had to stay in the EU so his daughter could work in Bratislava.

Now I've heard some weird reasons for remaining but giving up my democratic rights so this loon's daughter could live in Bratislava was taking the piss.

This country has changed drastically in the past ten years. It's no coincidence that people now struggle to get an appointment, at the doctors, social housing is non existent etc etc. Prior to the opening of our borders we knew the numbers needing catered for. We still know those numbers but it seems now that 330,000 per year has resulted in the white flag being raised and an every man for themselves attitude adopted. I dread to think what it'll look like in another 20 years. Are we going to see the creation of Britain's first shanty town? Because we've already ran out of available housing. It makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. Like some sort of self destruct mode.

Gimme a recession any day over the alternative. Absolutely pails into insignificance when you consider the alternative and what has yet to transpire if we choose to continue on the current course.

Are we going to see the creation of Britain's first shanty town?

It already exists in the back gardens of north west London. The housing situation is terrifying.

"The EU supplies plentiful cheap labour which depresses wages for the average British worker"

If we leave the EU under this government it will be disastrous for British workers.

You think this government cares about workers? They care about the profits of corporations, and without the EU holding them back things will get a lot worse for British workers.

Priti Patel, Employment Minister is on record as saying leaving the EU is an opportunity to get rid of EU legislation on workers rights link

Which ones do you think she means? Maternity leave? Holidays? Sickness pay? Minimum wage?

If we leave the EU you can expect a slash and burn of our rights in the much the same way the Tories have done with financial cuts.

This government cares about profit for corporations not making things better for ordinary people.

They are a much greater risk to our services than the much over-hyped issie of competition with migrants.

At least we have services and jobs with employment rights to compete over!

Give this lot a free hand and you can kiss goodbye to the NHS, schools run by the stateamd hard-won protection from employers exploiting you.

You're scared of a few immigrants? Ha fucking ha.

You are being manipulated to sign away the very things they are using to scare you with.

You think the Tories care about you and will make things better for ordinary people? Where do you get any evidence of that from?

They believe in small state and free markets. They are not traditional conservatives but Neo-cons. Do you understand what that means?

The Tories want to Remain.

"The Tories want to Remain."

Eh? Has it escaped your notice that this is the issue that splits the Tories?

Cameron wants to stay, sure. But he is not all the Tories. Many others such as Priti Patel, Boris Johnson to name just two want to leave.

And whether they want to stay or leave that doesn't change the fact they'll still be in power when the referendum is over.

Well, unless the election fraud scandal forces by-elections before then, are you lot aware of it? (Channel 4 has been reporting it but the BBC hasn't yet.)

Pritti Patel has talked so much sense on this issue while Alan Johnson has driven me crazy every time he opens his mouth.

I'll be glad when it's all over; I have chronic cognitive dissonance from it all.

Blinkowl this issue splits all the parties. Apart from UKIP I guess.

The Tories will be in power until the next general election. Then they can be voted out. We will never get another chance to vote out of the EU.

"Pritti Patel has talked so much sense on this"

You think giving away our hard-won employment rights is a good thing? How could you justify that?

We are entering an age where corporations are bigger than, and have more power than many countries. We need a government who is going to fight our corner not sell us off.

"The Tories will be in power until the next general election" or maybe sooner, have you heard about the election fraud story that's being uncovered at the moment?

You think giving away our hard-won employment rights is a good thing? How could you justify that?

EU Law previously ratified into E&W law isn't going to evaporate.

No, but the Tories will do their best to change it.

Our economy will tank if we leave, everyone agrees that, they're arguing about how long for not whether it'll happen. With hard economic times having become the norm, it'll be sold to us as making us competitive on the world stage.

I don't get how people don't see that, blinkowl. Sure, workers won't be competing with other (relatively well paid, protected by the same EU workers' rights) europeans anymore. Instead they'll be competing with workers in China who earn £2 a day and have never even heard of safety regulations or sick leave.

Chalala I don't understand your argument are we not already competing in an international market . WHen I look at the labels in my clothes they say made in China , made in India etc not made in the UK. And the Armageddon you are predicting surely we live in a democracy not a dictatorship . I am fairly confident that the EU is not the only thing standing between me and my basic rights. Any threats to employment rights will be fought just like France a cushy EU member is doing now and will ultimately be political suicide to the party that introduces it . As isn't this the point of Brexit to take back control of our legislation and economic policies . Or are you suggesting the only thing protecting us from Tory destruction is the EU

"Any threats to employment rights will be fought"

You reckon?

Just like we're all fighting tooth and nail against the dismantling of the NHS, the teaching profession, social housing, unions etc etc ... oh wait, no we're not.

Instead people are still going on about immigration. It's classic divide and rule tactics and the general public don't seem to be politically aware enough to recognise it.

Most media in this country is controlled by the right wing. We have a PM with a background in spin, heading a party that never comes out and states its principles publicly,

The Tories are a party of small government and currently, they are Neo-Cons. Workers rights are the opposite of what they believe in. They believe in "doing away with red tape". That red tape is the laws that protect us.

They want to get rid of our human rights. Part of the news agenda for years now has been how criminals are apparently abusing the human rights act, but a lot of it is bollocks. Like for example, it was widely reported when Theresa May told the Tory Party conference that an illegal immigrant was not deported because of his cat, which was protected by the human rights act. Less well reported was this was absolute bollocks - it was made up but still these stories remain in the public imagination. And people start falling for the line that the human rights act protect criminals. It protects all of us. We should be very worried indeed that the want to opt out of it, and perhaps even more worried that they have managed to convince so many people that it's in their interests when it's anything but.

"Or are you suggesting the only thing protecting us from Tory destruction is the EU"

Pretty much, yes.

The Tories are also trying very hard right now to make sure that Labour don't have a hope in hell of getting back in.

They are redrawing the boundaries of the current 650 MP constituencies into 600, in a way that massively favours them.

They are attacking the way the Labour party gets funded - making it opt-in rather than opt-out for relevant union members. This will hugely affect Labour's funding.

They have rushed through changes to the way voters are registered, resulting in nearly 800,000 voters being removed from the electoral role - disproportionately those who are much less likey to be Tory voters.

If we leave the EU, Scotland more likely to go independent at the earliest available opportunity, thus making it easier for Tories to get a majority.

And, they have most of the press in their pocket, so the public are fed a diet of stories designed to get them blame issues on immigrants (or whoever the latest bogey man is) rather than pointing their fingers at the root cause of inequality of opportunity or scarce resources (clue, it's not the immigrants, it's the ones who believe in slashing budgets and selling it all off to corporations).

So, no I don't see a post-EU Britain as a democratic paradise.

I think democracy is sadly lacking in this country at the moment, and if we leave the EU, it will speed up the process of selling everything off to corporations, leaving us with no democratic power over things like schools, hospitals, housing which will be run for profit (all the things people seem to think the immigrants are a threat to!) This kind of destruction can't easily be put right by voting in a new government for 5 years. So much easier to destroy than build.

" isn't this the point of Brexit to take back control of our legislation and economic policies"

Yes. but control by who, and for whom?

This government represents corporations, not ordinary people.

When they "take back control", will they suddenly change into a party who makes laws that help ordinary people? How is that going to happen? If you look at almost all their laws and policies and ask, who really benefits here, there is almost always a shift of power / resources to the super-rich and corporates.

Unfettered by EU restraint, do you think they will continue moving power to the super-rich and corporates or have a sudden change of heart, against all their Neo-Con principles, and start making policies that give power to the people?

Hmm, tough one. Not.

are we not already competing in an international market

Only to a certain extent. Almost half of British exports go to the EU. That's a protected market in which prices and workers' pay stay relatively high, because everyone agrees to play by the same rules of safety and working rights. It's multilateral agreed disarmament, if you will.

If you don't have these mutually agreed rules, then the door is open for a race to the bottom in terms of pay and rights. Outside of the EU, any country can undercut the others by lowering its production costs - and Britain will have to enter the same game in the name of competitivity.

Any threats to employment rights will be fought just like France a cushy EU member is doing now

Interesting example. What the French government is telling workers is: "our unemployment is too high because the labour market is not flexible enough. So let's swap a few workers' rights for higher employment rates, ok?"

Sounds reasonable enough, doesn't it? When the Brits are told they have to become more "competitive" to keep their jobs in the global market, can you see them going on general strike, blocking access to fuel, stopping public transports? French workers are doing all of this, and the government is not budging.