What's best for the next generation?

[HeckyWithTheGoodBear]

I really can't make up my mind on this one. It's the first time I've ever been able to vote (except from the last general election which I missed as I was in a postnatal daze and feel awful about as I can't complain about the Tories without feeling guilty) and it seems like this vote in particular is massively massively important - and ever so slightly overwhelming, and difficult as the two sides say specifically contradictory things.

Even in the official leaflet they put through my door, one side of the page said the EU costs us £++ and the other side said EU gave us £++. Most of us don't have economics/ politics PHD's so how is your average joe supposed to figure out who is telling the truth? I'm getting swayed every day.

But my main concern is what will be best for my baby DD, and any future children I go on to have. Lord knows the last generation has fucked everything up for me and my peers (in regards to housing, uni fees etc.). So what is the best decision for our children, IYO? Which decision means they are most likely to get a house, and a job, and a fair wage?

I have six adult DC all but one of whom have decided that any short term 'pain' is worth it to get us out of EU.

The 19 year old is still undecided and so are most of his classmates. They are veering towards stay. But they are being influenced by the totally 'end of the world as we know it' clap trap we are being fed by the remain camp.

I will vote out. I would be disenfranchising my grandchildren if I voted
anything else. We will never have any influence in a federal Europe which is what we will have if we stay in. This is a once in a generation chance we won't be given another vote on this in 10 years time.

The Labour leader seems to be hiding under a rock somewhere and I can't understand why he's done a complete U turn on the EU. The tory leadership is of course used to U turns.

I agree nagy. If any politician resigned in order to give their true opinion of the EU I may have more respect for them than one who'd give the opposite view to what they believe in, in order to stay in office.

That telegraph article is arguing strongly for a Norway type relationship: follow all the rules, accept the free movement of labour. But pay a bit less in & no voting rights (and no rebate... what we would pay in to be comparable to Norway is similar to what we pay in now, Net).

Being part of EU means regional security, stability & clout. So definitely Bremain is best for my kids.

If I am a member of a club - and I decide I want to leave the club, because I don't want to pay for it (and I quietly think I am better than the rest of them anyway). Am I then reasonable to expect the club to allow me all the benefits I had as a member, now I am no longer a member ?

That is effectively what the Brexit campaign is suggesting. I am tempted to think that the rest of the EU would be obliged to play hard ball - because if it is seen as ok to do that, with no down side, then why should all the rest continue paying in to the "club".

I think we are all much stronger when we work together (on all levels, in a family, in a team at work or play, in a union, or as part of the EU).

I want my kids to have the opportunity to travel and work throughout the EU if they choose to.

On balance I think being a member of the EU is good for future generations. And so do the younger members of the population if the polls are anything to go by.

I am tempted to say the over 60s should only get half a vote - they got to vote last time, they have had the benefit of membership for most of their lives (not least no warfare - far better than their parent's generation), and they are not affected by the long term future. The votes of the younger generation (18-40) should hold the most weight - they are going to have to live with the consequences for longest.

throckenholt, but you could argue that over 60s have experienced life both within and out of the EU and therefore can come to a more informed decision than those who have only known life within the EU. And anyway these days a 60 yo could easily live another 30 years so they're also pretty invested in the future.

And to be fair, as seen on this thread, many are voting with the future of their children/grandchildren in mind. Just because their conclusion is different to yours doesn't mean they don't understand the issues/are voting for their own selfish reasons etc. To believe that is incredibly arrogant.

Kummerspeck "I am concerned that a vote to stay is not a vote for the Europe we know now so I would be prepared to take some short term financial pain in order to avoid those risks"

This is a really interesting point. I know one person who says that she is worried about massive change if we leave but I think staying is also going to lead to massive change.

I'm pregnant at the moment and 100% believe that leaving is the right thing for my as yet unborn child.

My view is that smaller democracies with proper accountability are far better placed than huge blocs to be responsive to the pace of 21st century change, especially globalisation, in ways that do the best for everyone rather than just the 1%. The bigger the blocs, the weaker the democratic power of electorates to hold leaders to account.

I don't want to live in a sprawling technocracy of 500 million people, which governs by and for corporate lobbyists. So I'm for leaving and keeping the UK as a smaller state with the power to make its own decisions, and where those decisions are genuinely responsive to the needs and wishes of ordinary people.

"He thinks Inflation will rocket if we leave."
Jellyjiggles - I was definitely voting leave until I read your post. I remember the last bad inflation in 1970s and I certainly don't want a repeat of that. Why does he think there will be inflation?

Prometheus
"That is just one hypothesis that the Leave campaign are bandying about preciously to convince anxious mothers who are worried about their precious darlings not being able to afford to buy"
Surely it's perfectly reasonable that parents should have concerns for their children being unable to buy a house? Not sure why you have to answer such a concern so sarcastically?

There has also been the threat that house prices will fall if we leave.

I can't help thinking that's a great reason for young people to vote Leave

Manatee, many of us in the middle aged bracket could do with a house price fall as well!

smaller democracies with proper accountability

sadly we have nothing that even approximates to a properly accountable democracy in this country - usually 30-40 of those who vote (and that is never more than about 60% and often a lot less), get to pick the winner in each constituency.

Until we get a fairer voting system that better represents all the flavours of opinion, I find it hard to buy all the pie in the sky "it will be so much better on our own" arguements.

The EU ain't perfect, but it also isn't they bogey man that the Brexit campaign is trying to paint it.

And anyway these days a 60 yo could easily live another 30 years so they're also pretty invested in the future.

but they won't be working (all that much), won't be having kids etc - so won't care very much about the employment law and workers rights that the EU insist on. Which I have a feeling will be the first to go in the brave new Brexit world.

throcken - but the 60+ might have kids and grandkids...

And even if they don't, it's possible to be interested in what's best for future generations.

Until we get a fairer voting system that better represents all the flavours of opinion, I find it hard to buy all the pie in the sky "it will be so much better on our own" arguements.

With all its flaws (and it has plenty) the UK constitution is still far, far more accountable to the people of this country than the EU setup.

The EU government is steadily engaged in a process of centralising more and more lowers to itself over national governments. When I think of the recent Tory U-turns over academies, tax credits, PIP and more - which happened because of public outcry - and I compare those to the crucifixion of Greece in the Eurozone crisis and the total indifference of the EU powers to the suffering they are causing, I only see one system which despite its imperfections is to a degree at least responsive to public opinion.

Saying it doesn't really matter if the EU is anti-democratic because the UK constitution is not perfect is a terribly defeatist position.

Dapplegrey2 I'm being sarcastic as this is a massive decision affecting the society and economy of the UK for the next 50 years. To base such an important decision on the slight possibility that house prices may fall in the short term is, quite frankly, exceedingly short sighted.

If you all want house prices to fall, lobby the UK government to address this UK problem. Prevent oligarchs from buying up swathes of London, restrict buy to let mortgages. Hell, introduce a rule saying people are no longer allowed to own more than 1 property. Do not let this concern hijack a debate on a massively important political issue that has nothing whatsoever to do with house prices.

Democracy matters more than any other issue.

I want to pass on Democracy to my children and their children and so on.

There is no democracy in the EU. We have different needs to the other countries and our politicians say its a daily battle with EU interference to get anything done.

The EU can be our very good friend, but we dont have to have this marriage.

Thank you op and all of the posters. This is the first thread I have come across where there isn't a bun fight and ranty posters. All of the inputs I have read are well thought out. I am as yet undecided. I am trying to make a decision based on what is best for my dd without really knowing the truth as politicians seem to have gone into over egging the pudding on both sides of the argument. Your posts have helped a lot and has given me lots to think about

I'm still undecided, but when I hear some of the arguments put forward by the remain supporters, I hear the little voice in my head saying but, but, but....

So, throkenhalt, many of our employment laws, and especially those relating to equality are home grown, rather than imposed on us by the EU. I understand your concerns though, as in many respects I feel that employment conditions have gone down in the last few years. I cannot recall a time before now when zero hour contracts were so common.

Also, take a look what is happening in France at the moment. The BBC news mentioned the rioting last night, but only skimmed over what is causing the riots. I can't help but wonder why that is. The French government have a real issue with unemployment as the moment, which I believe is about 10%, almost double the UK's current employment rate. So they are attempting to bring about labour reforms which will enable employers to more easily sack workers and allow them to force workers to work increased hours. They are not saying they intend to leave the EU.

And as for over 60s only getting half a vote, I trust that was a joke. I'm not quite there yet, but everyone 18 and over has an equal say - full stop. It would be equally offensive to say that teenagers should get half a vote as they are only interested in cheaper air fares and roaming charges.

I'll vote leave as its better for my children. Less pressure on schools and facilities plus less people fighting for houses which will keep prices down.

Also, if the EU want to play hard ball with us over trade, they would be cutting off their noses to spite their faces. We are a wealthy nation - hence we are net contributors to the pot - and we import a huge amount from EU countries, particularly Germany and France. Who are they going to sell all those cars, cheese and wine too?

France is struggling (see above re riots). What's it gong to be like with all those farmers and wine producers kicking off as they can't sell their produce?

Of course, I don't know what they'll do if we leave, but I don't think it will be as disastrous as Remain make out.

Correction - the French unemployment rate is about double the UK's unemployment rate.

I think the only certainty is there is no certainty about what will happen if we leave or stay. The decision for me is based on what I see happening around me which is mass uncontrolled immigration from the EU putting immense pressure on housing and public services. I also think from what I'm reading that the EU will incorporate more countries and want further integration. David Cameron's renegotiation of our terms with the EU bought us nothing concrete and we were sent off with a flea in our ear. You wouldn't have thought we were the country who liberated Europe in the second world war

My Dsis is voting to remain in the EU. She lives in an expensive area in the south west where very few EU migrants live but plenty supply the service industry and comparatively little pressure on public services. For her the EU represents cheap help and services, travel, business and study opportunities. The only encounter she has with EU migrants is her high street Big Issue seller. As she is largely unaffected by EU migration she is over whelmingly positive about the EU.

I asked her how she would feel if we remained in the EU and her her dcs had to compete for university places, jobs and housing with lots more EU migrants in the future and she confessed she'd not thought that far ahead.