To ask if you think we will stay or go?

[TheoriginalLEM]

sorry its the EU.

i don't know that much but my gut feeling is we should stay.

however i think we will leave because strength of feeling seems to lay with the leavers wheras i think stayers might beless likely to vote or be in the not that fussed camp.

Agreed - some remainers have suggested the EU will just put up the shutters and tell us to flip off - but we don't know that for sure; it's another fear tactic to try to persuade us that a leave vote is too scary to contemplate.

Why would a leave verdict strengthen the UK's hand wrt the EU? Surely if the UK left, it would have less leverage in any negotiations.

Jeremy Paxman did an interesting programme on the EU. Quite a lot of the UK MEP's were UKIP and did not give much input politically in the process. They don't attend many meetings. I don't know if they even vote very much. So it would not be surprising the UK's voice was lessened or not represented at all in that case. The UK have a very good technical input, just no engagement politically.

WRT democracy. The house of lords is not democratically elected by the people and have power over legislation. Queenie & Co are not elected. I know they have no 'power' as such, but they do have influence as POW lobbying the government wrt alternative medicine and the NHS. He wanted more homeopathy paid for by taxpayers on the NHS. His influence would be more than any other mere individual subject/citizen/resident in the UK (who merely pay the tax to fund the NHS).

The council of ministers is made up of heads of the heads of member states and have been elected. It is one of the two EU legislative institutions. The other being the EU Parliament. These two institutions are made up of people elected by each member state. The Commission are not democratically elected, but then neither are the civil servants in any European country as far as I am aware.

The Commission presents proposals to Parliament and the Council and these (who are democratically voted in) vote to adopt, amend or reject.

Oh and nobody needs to have any uncertainty about how the UK will be affected by a Brexit. Michael Gove stated unambiguously in that Paxman programme that HE KNOWS how everything will be.

He was not bllsitting, you see. He can see into the future and take account of any variables.

I wonder if he will give me the Lotto numbers for next week?

And Liam Fox on the Daily Politics yesterday. The leave side's arguments were not based on facts, you see. They are based on assumptions. And his arguments were based on what exactly?

I don't think a truth has passed the lips of many a Conservative Brexiteer in many a year. And they are decrying an MO they are were very happy with.

I don't understand how they don't resign. Gove, Fox, Johnson et al. They have no faith in the leader of their party and are basically calling him and their Chancellor a liar. At least IDS resigned.

They don't normally recoil from creative hoaxing. One could argue they are happily hoaxing themselves, but don't want any competition in playing dirty.

Ah, so because we have some non democratic institutions in the UK< its a great excuse to add more un democratic layers of bureaucracy?

The leave side's arguments were not based on facts, you see. They are based on assumptions

Interesting and YOU can gaze into your crystal ball and tell us how the EU will look in ten years time?

With impoverished countries like Albania joining and the EU external border stretching to the mess that is Turkey?

WRT democracy. The house of lords is not democratically elected by the people and have power over legislation. Queenie & Co are not elected. I know they have no 'power' as such, but they do have influence as POW lobbying the government wrt alternative medicine and the NHS. He wanted more homeopathy paid for by taxpayers on the NHS. His influence would be more than any other mere individual subject/citizen/resident in the UK (who merely pay the tax to fund the NHS).

What is your point here? How does it relate to staying in or leaving the EU exactly?

"Why would a leave verdict strengthen the UK's hand wrt the EU?"

Strengthen UK's in currently ongoing negotiations. Because then UK would say "You need to concede to my demands or I'll have to leave the EU which is unpopular with my public in the status quo".

wason - The point is in reply to some who have said "EU is not democratic, if democracy matters to you, vote leave".

In fact it made me laugh out loud when a Tory spokeswoman was asked this recently and she cited a manifesto commitment as if they cared about what was (and possibly more importantly wasn't) in their manifesto.

Conservative Manifesto 2015

From page 72, we can see what the Tories said about the EU in their Manifesto, such as

"reform the workings of the EU, which is too big, too bossy and too bureaucratic".

Why would a leave verdict strengthen the UK's hand wrt the EU? Surely if the UK left, it would have less leverage in any negotiations.

A vote to leave wouldn't necessarily be the end of the process. The vote isn't binding so Cameron coukd return to the EU and say "what can you do for me?" - not saying that would happen, but it is possible. Of course you are right, once outside our negotiating strength would be founded more on the massive amount of stuff we buy from European Countries, rather than being outvoted in a club of which we're just one of 28.

Ah, so you're misrepresenting what I wrote. If one is banging on about the lack of democracy in legislatures, then I presume it is a principle held dear and the lack of democratically elected members of the house of lords is also a big issue for the UK voter who says they deplore it in the EU.

Although both chambers of the EU legislature are democratically voted in by member states.

wason - The point is in reply to some who have said "EU is not democratic, if democracy matters to you, vote leave

We aren't being offered a referendum on the House of Lords - if we were I'd be voting to scrap it. Why is this relevant? The argument seems to be "The House of Lords is undemocratic, therefore vote remain" which makes no logical sense.

Ah, so you're misrepresenting what I wrote. If one is banging on about the lack of democracy in legislatures, then I presume it is a principle held dear and the lack of democratically elected members of the house of lords is also a big issue for the UK voter who says they deplore it in the EU

When is the House of Lords referendum? Because I will be voting to abolish that when I get a chance.

At present I am being given a chance to vote on the EU

Surely if the UK left, it would have less leverage in any negotiations.

What particular leverage has the UK achieved in any negotiations with the EU since we joined? What has happened in the EU that wouldn't have happened anyway had the UK not been a member?

The leave side's arguments were not based on facts, you see. They are based on assumptions

No, both sides arguements are based on assumptions, you see.

There is an ongoing push in the UK for reform in the House of Lords, and I think that although progress is slow, it will go in the right direction.

Wikipedia: Reform of the House of Lords

Electoral Reform Society: Reforming the House of Lords

BBC Q&A: House of Lords reform

History of House of Lords reform from the Parliament UK website

Was - the vote is binding. We vote leave and we leave. We can never go back except on much worse terms.

Born free "Interesting and YOU can gaze into your crystal ball and tell us how the EU will look in ten years time?"

I don't claim that and wouldn't claim I could do that.

But Michael Gove did say to Jeremy Paxman that he KNEW how the UK would look like in the event of a Brexit (on Paxman's programme about the EU).

I wonder where Michael Gove keeps his crystal ball?

I am happy to debate these issues calmly - no need for the silly student rhetoric.

Your response to being asked for a credible vision of Britain 's economic future outside the EU was:

There's not a lot of point in that is there? Anything put forward will be rubbished by all the various bodies who have formed a cosy club to warn how much leaving would cost

And you accuse me of silly student politics, when you can't bring yourself to answer one of the most pressing questions for voters that there's a credible economic alternative that will leave Britain better off, supposedly on the grounds that people will present counterevidence.

Alright, I'll make it easier. How severe would the economic damage in the short to medium term is almost universally accepted as a given) before you reconsidered your vote?

I'd like to leave but I think we will stay

If most MEP'S don't attend meetings or vote, I suspect lack of influence will be self-fulfilling. Or if the leader of the Government stays silent while the EU is blamed when they don't do something they can.

wason: I meant to say Liam Fox stated the REMAIN'S arguments were not based on facts, but assumptions.
You quite rightly added the basis for the Leave campaign is not based on facts.

The silly rhetoric accusation was to you saying "desparate" and the other stuff. No-one can make a credible prediction.

As to your question about how much economic impact would make it worth leaving - that's unanswerable since it presupposes I could have an accurate and reliable assesment I could trust to base my vote upon, and I can't. I can say that since I am not basing my decision solely on the economics, that I would trade a short-term downturn for longer term freedom for the UK to make laws in our own interests. To say this doesn't imply that I think the UK and our institutions and democracy are perfect, just that I would prefer us to run them.

Was - the vote is binding.
No it isn't - watch what happens if we vote leave.

Can you imagine the uproar if the referendum result is Leave and yet we stay. Anyone who votes Leave because they think it is a bargaining chip to negotiate a stay is deluded.

Didn't Farage are say they want another referendum in the event of a Remain vote with less than two thirds majority?

In that case will also have to watch what happens if the result is to remain.

There may indeed be another referendum in the event of a Leave vote, too. Another Leave referendum for Scotland!

www.independent.co.uk/voices/michael-gove-and-boris-johnson-know-that-if-we-leave-the-eu-scotland-leaves-us-so-whats-going-on-a6991346.html