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Brexit

See all MNHQ comments on this thread

To ask if you think we will stay or go?

535 replies

TheoriginalLEM · 17/05/2016 17:21

sorry its the EU.

i don't know that much but my gut feeling is we should stay.

however i think we will leave because strength of feeling seems to lay with the leavers wheras i think stayers might beless likely to vote or be in the not that fussed camp.

OP posts:
emeraldlakes · 23/05/2016 17:28

There's been some argument that in the event of an exit, the World Trade Organization would be able to intervene and help much of our current trade deals to continue. None of it really matters though since the effects of staying/leaving are only able to be guessed

scaryteacher · 23/05/2016 17:32

Would you buy online from a company based outside the EU? Yes, I buy stuff from Australia and the States, and with the latter they sometimes bear the customs and shipping costs.

My last purchase from Australia arrived last week, and a book ds had ordered from the US arrived today.

emeraldlakes · 23/05/2016 17:49

Just realised how badly worded my last post was. I understand we'd have to keep to the WTO's trade rates but that would hopefully save many from loss of employment. And that's worst case scenario. Those pulling the strings would be spiting themselves not to allow a trade deal in the event of an exit. There's uncertainties on both sides but I believe it's in the best interests of the UK to leave, hopefully if we do then more will follow

hollyisalovelyname · 23/05/2016 17:55

Switzerland is not in the EU.
Why not?

VulcanWoman · 23/05/2016 17:59

Exactly, never done them any harm, in fact they're thriving, always have done.

Figmentofmyimagination · 23/05/2016 18:09

Well thatcher is directly relevant really. It's largely down to her assault on trade union rights (continued by Cameron et al in the trade union act) that collective bargaining/wage board coverage has slumped from 82% in the 80s to around 16% now. As a result, surprise surprise, we have the worst wage inequality of the developed EU member states. So while the northern EU states are fighting to reform the posted workers' directive so that migrant workers have to be paid the same sectoral minimum wage as their ms nationals, as long as the wage is in a legally enforceable collective agreement, we are out in the cold as we have no legally enforceable collective agreements and even if we did, we have hardly any collective bargaining coverage and it is Conservative party policy to reduce it down to zero in the name of "flexibility and job creation". It didn't have to be this way. These are political choices, coming home to roost. So in Britain, instead of expecting employers to pay decent wages, we top up low wages and irregular hours using tax transfers, and then moan when migrants also qualify. What could possibly go wrong.

LikeDylanInTheMovies · 23/05/2016 18:28

Use your head and ask yourself if there is any possibility that not one out of 28 EU member countries (including Cyprus and Greece) will say "No" to Turkey's accession, even assuming it comes to that.

Exactly this. The exit campaign know this fine well and are basically at it. But what I don't understand, if the case for leave is so strong, why are they resorting to desperate lies like this? Why can't they give us a credible vision of what Britain's economic future will look like?

wasonthelist · 23/05/2016 20:28

Well thatcher is directly relevant really Don't disagree with that excellent analysis - but it doesn't really inform the debate about Brexit much does it?

wasonthelist · 23/05/2016 20:34

Why can't they give us a credible vision of what Britain's economic future will look like?

There's not a lot of point in that is there? Anything put forward will be rubbished by all the various bodies who have formed a cosy club to warn how much leaving would cost. None of them has been right about everything, ever, so it's really like two bald men arguing over a comb.

A bit like the OP's (valid IMHO) complaint about people only arguing about immigration, it's pointless arguing only about the economics as it's unknowable.

Many of the bodies predicting economic meltdown failed to predict the last crash altogether and wanted us to join the Euro. There is no such thing as "reliable" in this context. Osborne has missed all his targets all the time, yet somehow he's now an expert on this with an unbiased view? Yeah, OK.

wasonthelist · 23/05/2016 20:36

Use your head and ask yourself if there is any possibility that not one out of 28 EU member countries (including Cyprus and Greece) will say "No" to Turkey's accession, even assuming it comes to that.

Cameron is very much in favour - as are some of the other leaders. One might just as well ask if it is credible that Cyprus (as a likely contender) could be allowed to hold the whole thing up if everyone else is happy for Turkey to join?

Gwenhwyfar · 23/05/2016 20:42

"I read somewhere (Buzzfeed?) today saying that in online polls, Leave is in the majority while in telephone polls, Remain has the lead. The theory was that people are more likely to be honest in an anonymous online poll. "

Probably also the demographic profile (including age) of people who use the internet v the phone.

BG2015 · 23/05/2016 22:07

I want to leave.

I've only recently made my decision. Having looked into what the EU does and how it does it, I'm not impressed. 10,000 people who work in the EU earn more than David Cameron. There are laws and regulations over the most bizarre things. Is that how they use our money to push paper around and to come up with 12,500 regulations about milk?

How do they have our interests at heart? The suffragettes fought for the right to vote in a democratic society, the EU isn't democratic.

But I believe people will stick with the status quo.

user1463231665 · 23/05/2016 22:22

Experienced dispassionate experts with no axe to grind universally say we will be worse off if we leave. It is not a cosy cartel sayign this. It is just about everyone who knows the reality. Ian Duncan Smith (pro Brexit) did not really have an answer to that point on Radio 4 this morning and it's not surprising. We pro-EU people are not making it up that hardly anyone thinks the UK will be better off if leave. It is simply the case.

As for harmonising law it has made things easier. Instead of 28 sets of rules on milk (the example above) we have one, same with all kind sof sectors. It has really helped business that instead of having to ensure goods conform to so many different requirements they just have one set. Don't believe many of the myths the brexiters put out. Vote to stay.

LikeDylanInTheMovies · 23/05/2016 23:13

There's not a lot of point in that is there? Anything put forward will be rubbished by all the various bodies who have formed a cosy club to warn how much leaving would cost. No

Oh dear. That really is running up the white flag isn't it. You don't even seem to believe it yourself. Desperate.

Damselindestress · 24/05/2016 00:18

I was fairly on the fence about the issue of an EU exit (hate the word Brexit) and if I'd heard a convincing argument from the leave campaign I might have been swayed but I don't think they have put forth a clear argument on how economic insecurity will be avoided.

Meanwhile the Treasury says leaving the EU would spark a year long recession. People are scared for their jobs and scared that the price of goods would go up and I don't feel that the leave campaign has adequately reassured them. In fact they even had the own goal of their biggest donor Peter Hargreaves saying economic insecurity would be "fantastic"! Maybe for a billionaire who has a lot of financial padding before he'd feel the pinch and might even be able to find opportunity in insecurity but not for ordinary people who are already feeling the pinch and worried we won't be able to afford basic household necessities if prices are pushed up! I think we will remain if more ordinary people on average incomes are voting than billionaires.

Figmentofmyimagination · 24/05/2016 06:17

What makes me angry is the sheer incompetence of calling a referendum at all. If it is genuinely the case that an exit would lead directly to an economic crisis, not to mention destabilising Europe (Putin etc), no serious and credible government would have taken this step. It's the government's job to govern. That's what they are there for. Everrybodies livelihoods and the future of young people are placed needlessly at risk for the sake of a faction within the Conservative party membership. A DIY crisis indeed. I hope that Cameron and Osborne are punished for this, whatever the consequences of this referendum.

MardleBum · 24/05/2016 06:24

10,000 people who work in the EU earn more than David Cameron. There are laws and regulations over the most bizarre things. Is that how they use our money to push paper around and to come up with 12,500 regulations about milk?

Couldn't agree more.

LikeDylanInTheMovies · 24/05/2016 06:28

Agreed figment it is sad and worrying to see the PM playing Russian roulette with the nation's future in order to prove a point to the anti EU faction in the Tory party.

wakeupandsmellthecoffee · 24/05/2016 06:46

Watch the Brexit video on utube very very enlightening
Totally explains it all

Limer · 24/05/2016 07:49

I think many people see this referendum as a choice between a rock and a hard place. They'll vote with the "better the devil you know" mindset, not realising that the EU isn't going to stay the same.

This summer will see lots of unrest on the streets across the EU as a reaction to the migrant disaster. The far right is on the rise everywhere. Greece will in all likelihood default on its next debt repayment, flinging the Euro once more into crisis. A long line of ever-poorer countries will be joining the EU, all needing big cash contributions from the richer countries, and all with substantial youth unemployment problems. That's the future for the EU.

wasonthelist · 24/05/2016 10:31

Oh dear. That really is running up the white flag isn't it. You don't even seem to believe it yourself. Desperate

I "don't seem to believe" what, exactly?

The economic consequences of leaving are highly unpredictable, but no doubt there will be some - that's about all we can say for sure. Uncertainty tends to spook markets in the short term, but if investors/bankers see opportunities, they will take them.

None of the people queing up to warn us we can't afford to leave the EU, however much we want to is without an axe to grind or an agenda, and none of them has always been right with their past predictions - that is hardly a solid foundation.

I am happy to debate these issues calmly - no need for the silly student rhetoric.

wasonthelist · 24/05/2016 10:36

Damselindestress You say you are on the fence and then write a long post all about how rubbish the leave campaign is and why we should be scared and not leave - doesn't sound very on the fence to me.

user1463231665 · 24/05/2016 10:39

I agree with the annoyance that the referendum were called at all. John Major (wiser than he ever got credit for) never even though the Scottish referendum was a good idea. When you go for these polls you take a huge risk.
On polls "
"I read somewhere (Buzzfeed?) today saying that in online polls, Leave is in the majority while in telephone polls, Remain has the lead. The theory was that people are more likely to be honest in an anonymous online poll."

Yougov says:

"Why the difference between phone and online in EU referendum polling?
There’s a big difference between the online and telephone polls on the EU referendum – with online polls showing the sides neck-and neck and telephone polls showing about a 15% gap in favour of ‘remain’. Why?

It’s striking that both methodologies right across the different polling companies give about the same number to the ‘leave’ campaign, around 40%. The difference is in the ‘remain’ number, which is around 52% from the telephone polls but only 40% for online polls.

Telephone polls ask their respondents “How will you vote in the referendum?” People are assumed to have an opinion, and 90% of them give one. By contrast, online polls present people with options: remain, leave, won’t vote, don’t know – there is less assumption of an opinion, and 20% or more don’t offer one.

Intuitively, it is much more likely that 20% rather than 10% have no opinion – indeed one might think the real number of ‘don’t knows’ should be even higher. But in person-to-person dialogue people feel pressured by the expectation of an opinion, and then it’s much more likely to be for the status quo rather than change.

We believe this accounts for most of the difference between the methodologies. It doesn’t make one right or wrong. Indeed, judging how many people really have an opinion and will turn out to vote is the big question mark hanging over this campaign, and we expect to find out more and more as we get closer to the moment of decision.

There is the possibility that the different methodologies reach slightly different types of people, but the evidence of the last general election showed this was largely a red herring – the final eve-of-election polls made the same prediction regardless of whether they were conducted online or by phone, and they were just as wrong.

So what should you conclude from the current polls on the EU referendum? Well, if there are lessons to be learnt from the polls last May, it’s that they are not infallible, and sometimes it’s the underlying questions that are a more useful pointer to the final result. Historically polls three or four months ahead of a referendum have not been a good predictor at all – voting intention in referendums can move fast. However the underlying questions in our polling shows that ‘remain’ has some notable advantages – leaving the EU is seen as bad for jobs, bad for British influence, bad for the economy. Above all, remaining is seen as the safe option, leaving is seen as increasingly risky. And in our experiments we found a much higher ‘potential vote’ for remain than for leave. If we had to make a prediction based on our current data, we would expect the poll to end up moving towards ‘remain "

wasonthelist · 24/05/2016 10:42

Actually I agree that the referendum isn't for us - it is 1975 all over again. A party divided so the leader goes to the nation for a verdict. Not really a good enough reason, but we are where we are. In fact it made me laugh out loud when a Tory spokeswoman was asked this recently and she cited a manifesto commitment as if they cared about what was (and possibly more importantly wasn't) in their manifesto.

CoteDAzur · 24/05/2016 11:01

"When you go for these polls you take a huge risk."

Not really. Referendum is not binding and a "Leave" verdict will probably just serve to strengthen UK's hand in its negotiations with the EU.

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