The only way to get the EU to take the UK seriously is to vote to leave

[SpringingIntoAction]

Cameron tells us repeatedly that he wants to remain in a reformed EU.

Many others across the political divides also acknowledge the need for the EU to reform itself.

Some say that's why we need to remain in the EU - to change it from within.

I think the EU's refusal to engage with Cameron's plea for his EU reforms and the failure of his 'special deal' to achieve anything like the changes he originally said he wanted, show the EU is unwilling/incapable of reform.

I think the only way to get the EU to start taking our demands for reform seriously is to vote to leave.

They need to start imagining what the EU would be like without one of its largest funders - the UK. We do that by voting to leave.

Speaking as someone who loathes Jeremy Clarkson, I would rather be on the same side as him, George Osborne, David Cameron and yes, even Jeremy Hunt (as well as many people whose opinions I do actually respect, such as Barack Obama and Caroline Lucas) than IDS, Michael Gove, Boris Johnson, Donald Trump, Vladimir Putin, Nigel Farage, Nigel Lawson, Priti Patel, George Eustace, Rupert Murdoch

I'd rather be on the side of the future of democracy, that's when I'm voting out. Don't you care about democracy?

What about Dia Chakravarty, The Rev. Giles Fraser, Irvine Welsh, David Owen, Kate Hooey, Gisela Stewart, Tom Harris and my personal hero, Frank Field?

They are all pro-Brexit.

Would you mind being on the same side as them?

Snow: Yes, I do. I just don't think the "I'm voting out because democracy" argument stands up to scrutiny.

As I've said about a gazillion times on here, I personally am better represented in the European Parliament than I am in Westminster.

If you care so much about democracy, please tell me what you personally are doing to campaign for electoral reform at home.

Because actually, despite what the Brexit camp would have us believe, many of the laws and policies which have the biggest impact on people's everyday lives are nothing to do with the EU.

Here are some of the things I care about:

The housing crisis
The pensions crisis
The junior doctors' contracts
Cuts to legal aid
Dairy farmers
Welfare cuts and the bedroom tax
The education system
University tuition fees
Human rights
Rehabilitation of offenders
Support for vulnerable people in the community

None of these things are particularly affected by the EU. The biggest threat to all of these things is the Tories. And because of our absurd electoral system, my vote counts for nothing and there is bugger all I can do about it.

Don't you care about democracy?

Lol there have been opportunities to change to proportional representation and it hasn't happened.

So people will still be pointlessly counter voting in labour or conservative strongholds. Why is it now a big deal with Europe?

I am massively more annoyed at that than the EU.

*So people will still be pointlessly counter voting in labour or conservative strongholds. Why is it now a big deal with Europe?

I am massively more annoyed at that than the EU*

The fact remains, if the government screw up, we can vote them out. if the EU government/council screw up - they're not accountable for their actions, democratically.

No, a small number of people who happen to live in marginal constituencies can vote them out. I can't do anything, and neither can most people.

"before we joined the EU in the 1970s, the country was financially stable (sure there were moments of depression with the world wars but it never got as bad as it is now)."

Three day week, devaluation of the pound, oil crisis, ongoing debt crisis? Think some people should learn their economic history before posting about it.

"If we leave the EU, the country will have more financial stability through not having to give money to the EU... Also we'll be able to negotiate trade deals with America (our bestie and the leader of the global economy), China and Australia."

Um we only give £7.5 bn to the EU net, didn't Obama tell us about the chances of negotiating a trade deal with them?

"Also if there is any chance of saving the NHS from privatisation, it's through leaving. "

Another TTIP bandwagoner who fails to understand the implications of the 2012 Health and Social care act.

Yet another Brexiter with a scant grasp of the facts too.

Lurked101: not sure what you are saying re commission? The commission set the agenda - propose laws. Do explain what you disagree with re the commission setting the agenda and the direction they wish to go.

Well the comission can set an agenda, but it can also do so at the request of the parliament and the counci ( or of course 1 million signatiures)l. But legislation must be passed by the counicl and/or the parliament in order for it to become legal. The comission doesn't just "impose" what it wants in the way that you were implying.

Also the level of negotiation that goes on prior to legislation making it through means that it is very difficult to get anything through that is significantly deterimental to any member state.

I suspect the EU will take us seriously if we vote to leave, but for the strictly limited purpose of doing us over as thoroughly as they can, pour decourager les autres (scuse the franglais)
And that won't work out too well for us, at least over the medium term. maybe long term we will enter this brave new world of liberty and prosperity. I have no idea and the brexiters certainly don't either.

As oft repeated we certainly won't get the "free trade" deal that the Brexiters are hoping for, more likely the WTO one that Gove mentioned on Sunday.

Lurked; Set an agenda ? They set the policies! EU Parliament and council discuss. Parliament can ask for a proposal but the commission doesn't agree with it then it doesn't happen.

you have a very theoretical view of the EU, doesn't seem based on how it works daily. When you've seen EU at work for long enough, to say what commission want is what they get - is correct. The commission don't want referendums, known in Brussels openly.

Re the million signatories: we can ask for something to be discussed. Sounds lovely, in theory.
Citizen initiatives are democratic mechanisms that let citizens propose and vote on laws and policies. A million signatures may ask. How kind.

However, it has been stated by the European Commission that an ECI can only be the subject of the acceptation/creation of a law, but it cannot ask to reject a law.[67]

Last few words of that sentence are the important bit.

What they say goes. Remember they proposed law in first place, the law we can't even with a million signatures ask to reject.

You have a narrow text book view on the whole debate. The realities of Eurozone economics; the way laws are made; secrecy around TTip(goes way beyond being acceptable); the realities of working class people in UK- none of it impact your view that they are all doing great, they just don't know it but you can give them some statistics to show them it would be even worse for them if they don't vote in....

Anyway neither of us will change our view, but I hope undecideds are inspired to research themselves how laws happen in the EU and that the direction is set by the commission. The reality of financial misery in EU countries where quite often their brightest leave their own countries to do menial jobs in our country.

We won't get the chance to vote to leave again.

If my view is narrow then yours is conspiracy theorist hysterical, sorry.

Parliament, and the council memebrs (so national governments) can ask for policies, they are then worked on by civil servants on secondment from each state who represent and negotiate for their state interests. Parliament and the council are the only bodies that can ratify, and they go through extensive negotiation.

The way you make it sound is like the Commission dream up laws to hurt the EU and pass them with no process. Its not the case.

I also don't believe we will not get a chance to vote out again, again hysterical hyperbole.

We won't get the chance to vote to leave again.

I hope so. I don't think I could deal with the stress a second time round. But sadly I think if we vote remain, the Brexit camp will accept defeat about as graciously as the Scottish nationalists have.

you think it's a conspiracy how the Commission works?

You understand how ordinary legislative process works or not?

Million signatures can invite the commission to look at their proposal - not the parliament - the commission look at the request from million signatories. You understand that it's the commission that decide?

Most work exactly how I said above.
EU parliament can ask for policies, but won't happen if commission don't agree

The commission draft policy - parliament discuss approve.

"Making – or changing – EU law
Most EU legislation is passed through what is known as the ordinary legislative process, in which the European Commission drafts a proposal, then both the European Parliament and Council (EU Governments) discuss, amend and vote on the proposal through up to three ‘readings’.
At the end of the process, both Council and Parliament must reach an agreement, which then enters into law on publication in the EU’s ‘Official Journal’. Governments must then implement the law in each country.
Most EU law is enforced by national governments – but the EU Commission checks that they are doing this."

I've pasted friends of earth page 2
www.foe.co.uk/euelections

You evidently don't understand it.

How do you think the commission comes up with the ideas? On its own, wishing to impose its will on Europe? Or do you think policy is come up with by the Commisioners/requested by members of the council/parliament and then negotiated by the civil servants from each country before it even reaches a reading?

Quotes from

Secret EU lawmaking: the triumph of the trilogues

"Search for any mention of trilogues in the EU treaties and you will draw a blank."

"This is because despite being an accepted part of the lawmaking landscape, in legal terms trilogues don't exist."

"All trilogue meetings are informal and the timing of the meetings are not known to most MEPs, let alone the ordinary public. There are no formal minutes taken. Some are over within a few minutes. Others can go on all day and well into the night."

""The Commission is supposed to be the facilitator of the trilogues, but in reality it sees itself more and more as the ‘ruler’", says Daniel Gueguen, a seasoned Brussels lobbyist and expert in business of EU law-making."

"The commission also has two legal trump cards: it can withdraw its proposal, and can insist that legislation can only be adopted with the unanimous support of council."

"In truth, the trilogue meetings themselves are just the tip of the iceberg when it comes to secret lawmaking.""

I don't think you understand what all of that means.

It still has to be approved by the parliament or the council.

The commission is still made up of civil servants from each of the member states and commissioners from each of them too.

It isn't some nefarious organisation sitting in secret trying to find ways to do the UK down.

Interestingly, I've brought this up in previous threads but to no response, did you know that joining the WTO in the way that we would after Brexit would involve lower regulations and some loss of sovreignty too?

Lurked: as I say theoretical knowledge not based on seeing it at work.

I can't believe anyone with any knowledge would say something as daft as where do I think the commission get their ideas from!

There is no mystery as to what laws the commission is next proposing - they are quite open on that - its just generally so outrageous people like you believe it to be a conspiracy theory!!

I'm signing off now - I won't bore you attaching endless EU commission documents on their plans for tax, pooled sovereignty; an EU treasury - as presumably you know all this and think it's a fantastic idea for Greece, Italy etc, clearly otherwise you wouldn't be voting to stay.

I mean your strongest argument to stay is it is the "educated" that will vote to stay. ...

Very general overview from the guys themselves attached. No not a conspiracy -this is what they say themselves and what the EU parliament will get to discuss /agree on shortly after our referendum.

Hopefully it has all settled down in Greece now with those silly protestors against "cuts"! Suicide rate up 35% - perhaps you should send them some statistics - you know to support your theory about how they are better off, just the reality of their every day life again getting in the way of those statistics.

If only we were all as forward thinking as you to cling to something that clearly is only benefit to multi national companies and banks. Oh and landlords of houses of multiple occupation, they are doing terribly well and are fervent remainers.

europa.eu/rapid/press-release_IP-15-5240_en.htm

I'm afraid it's you that seems to think it's all

I have no such illusions or lacking the understanding that the 5 presidents report applies mainly to the euro zone not the EU.

My knowledge of it all is just fine. Thanks all the same. You can go back to your little theories now.

The UK's better out than in.

And I agree with Kelandry that there's more than a kernel of significance in the Eurovision results - in a slightly ironic way, of course. The songs/performances don't really play much of a part, people just vote for their favourite country. The winner is either a plucky little place that's had some bad luck recently (e.g. Greece) or somewhere that nobody hates (e.g. Sweden). The UK only ever gets a few votes from Ireland and Malta. Clearly illustrates exactly how the rest of the EU view the UK.

Yes, I think it's true re the Eurovision song contest.

Also, what a surprise! A comment from the queen slagging of the Chinese. So now I expect we should all be fearful of a war with China and therefor must be protected if we stay in the EU.

Well, I was right about the queen having a comment leaked (on the other thread) now I just need to wait for another "vow".
:D

Clearly illustrates exactly how the rest of the EU view the UK.

Yes. And the answer to that isn't to stay in the EU and be scorned because the UK isn't obedient enough.