The only way to get the EU to take the UK seriously is to vote to leave

[SpringingIntoAction]

Cameron tells us repeatedly that he wants to remain in a reformed EU.

Many others across the political divides also acknowledge the need for the EU to reform itself.

Some say that's why we need to remain in the EU - to change it from within.

I think the EU's refusal to engage with Cameron's plea for his EU reforms and the failure of his 'special deal' to achieve anything like the changes he originally said he wanted, show the EU is unwilling/incapable of reform.

I think the only way to get the EU to start taking our demands for reform seriously is to vote to leave.

They need to start imagining what the EU would be like without one of its largest funders - the UK. We do that by voting to leave.

You mean the TTIP that countries like France are fighting against tooth and nail (and succeeding) but the Tories want to sign up to in its full unadulterated glory? That TTIP?

One of the main arguments of "leave" voters is that the UK should be able to negotiate its own free trade agreements with third countries.

So am I do understand that it doesn't matter what the terms of those agreements are, or whether we could get better terms as part of the EU, as long as they are negotiated by us and not the EU? That it doesn't matter if we end up with a far worse version of TTIP as long as it's ours and no one else's?

The was no EU in the 1950s.

No, but it's 2016 now, and the EU exists whether we like it or not.

58 per cent of the UK's farmers would like to leave the EU.

Devilish the idea that Hunt is representing me in the House of Commons makes me feel our electoral system is a farce. I feel more democratically represented in the European Parliament than I do here.

Winterbiscuit and 58% of turkeys, when polled, said they would vote for Christmas.

Got any stats for that one buttered?

Evidence I mean

Our fishermen want to leave; they've been absolutely shafted by the eu.

Come on, Winterbiscuit. Most farmers are asset rich, cash poor. Thousands have gone out of business due to the dairy companies screwing them over on the price of milk. An outbreak of foot and mouth disease or bovine TB means they need to be failed out by the government just to stay afloat. Their profit margins are minuscule. Farming in western Europe is not profitable, which is why the CAP exists. It's a massive exception from the EU's normal "free market" principles. Why? Because the EU believes food security and maintaining an agricultural economy are important.

Most farmers would go out of business without the subsidies they get from the EU.

So riddle me this. If we leave the EU, who is going to subsidise the farmers to make sure they don't go under?

George Eustace says the UK will continue to pay farm subsidies. But he is a junior minister with very little influence in government. Nobody else, to my knowledge, has promised to maintain farming subsidies if we leave the EU. And even if the Tories did, I can't imagine Labour would.

The was no EU in the 1950s

It wasn't called the EU then, but the original treaty of Rome was signed in 1957. The UK didn't join up even though there were already signs post-Suez that Britain was needing to re-evaluate its international role. The UK then spent most of the 1960s wanting to join but was continually blocked by Charles de Gaulle, who probably suspected we would spend the next few decades whinging about our membership. Obviously the EU has evolved and changed considerably since the Treaty of Rome, as all institutions do.

"No, but it's 2016 now, and the EU exists whether we like it or not"

Indeed, so it makes that persons post utterly invalid.

I'm well aware of the year and that the EU exists, thank you, I'm more concerned as to how we got to this point in time and who gave the elite the mandate to create this political entity. Andy why?

Well that's all very interesting, but the relevant question is actually "are we better off in or out?"

The answer should be obvious, but the fact that there are farmers who are even contemplating voting for Brexit is quite worrying.

The BBC are reporting that IDS is trying to get the Labour vote.

The same IDS who invented the bedroom tax?

IMr Snow, I think the EU came from en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paneuropean_Union this.

He will make me change sides and vote stay.

Ha!

I have to say, I'm not sure an uber-Tory like IDS is really the best choice to try and appeal to Labour voters. But it could well be counterproductive, so he can crack on, as far as I'm concerned.

Ids talking on BBC now.

I'm working from home but probably shouldn't go as far as putting the TV on. And should probably get off Mumsnet now, this work won't do itself. I'll check out IDS's speech at lunchtime.

George Eustace says the UK will continue to pay farm subsidies. But he is a junior minister with very little influence in government. Nobody else, to my knowledge, has promised to maintain farming subsidies if we leave the EU. And even if the Tories did, I can't imagine Labour would.

Tories are philosophically against subsidies and remember we are supposedly still in auster times and need to cut the deficit. Tories will say it needs to be left to the market so due to TTIP which we will panic sign, on top of lots of other deals and start importing US poorly regulated milk probably.

Yes fishermen got shafted but there was massive overcapacity and overfishing they weren't 'farming' as such, not managing fishing grounds etc just chukcing nets out and emptying the sea.

My understanding of TTIP is that it's unlikely to go ahead anyway (thank goodness).

IDS is delusional if he thinks he can win over Labour voters

Having recently been canvassing for Labour in the LE, IDS doesn't need to do much to persuade them to leave.

He will make me change sides and vote stay.

But then you'll be on the same side as George Osborne and Jeremy Clarkson...

Speaking as someone who loathes Jeremy Clarkson, I would rather be on the same side as him, George Osborne, David Cameron and yes, even Jeremy Hunt (as well as many people whose opinions I do actually respect, such as Barack Obama and Caroline Lucas) than IDS, Michael Gove, Boris Johnson, Donald Trump, Vladimir Putin, Nigel Farage, Nigel Lawson, Priti Patel, George Eustace, Rupert Murdoch...etc etc.