The only way to get the EU to take the UK seriously is to vote to leave

[SpringingIntoAction]

Cameron tells us repeatedly that he wants to remain in a reformed EU.

Many others across the political divides also acknowledge the need for the EU to reform itself.

Some say that's why we need to remain in the EU - to change it from within.

I think the EU's refusal to engage with Cameron's plea for his EU reforms and the failure of his 'special deal' to achieve anything like the changes he originally said he wanted, show the EU is unwilling/incapable of reform.

I think the only way to get the EU to start taking our demands for reform seriously is to vote to leave.

They need to start imagining what the EU would be like without one of its largest funders - the UK. We do that by voting to leave.

I'd be quite worried if I were a newly bought homeowner tbf, a period of falling house prices could seriously hurt people who have bought in the last few years.

I think sadly that as in the last downturn a fall in house prices would simply benefit BTL landlords who would offset the increased stamp duty against the fall in tax and expand further.

www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/may/19/rents-property-values-drop-after-brexit-landlords-house-prices-eu-referendum

Well, this is what im reading and other first time buyers.

If I put a blue pen down you'd argue that is was red just because that's what you want it to be. There's always pro's and cons. It's all if's and maybes.

I am still on fence.

How on earth do you reform something from the outside? Especially when you're in political and economic turmoil. What a bizarre thing to say

There's always pro's and cons.

Well, yes. You suggest a pro, so in return you're presented with all the cons that come with it. I'd say that's fair game!

Seriously, it's possible you may be one of the lucky few able to pick up a discounted house, but falling house prices have some really bad effects on the economy as a whole. You don't want a lot of people in negative equity, that's how the US recession got started in 2007.

To answer the question posed in the header. I don't think leaving would make the EU take the UK seriously.

Leaving would reduce any influence the UK had on the EU and decisions would be made by the EU without regard for how it would effect the UK.

It doesn't make any sense that they would improve any deals that they were to give us, it really doesn't make any sense that we would get a better deal than the member states would have.

Thank you for your gracious apology ExtremelyConfidential - I wasn’t offended. I was just a teensy bit jealous of your fabulous wealth.

Lago I agree up to a point with your analysis of the EU migration issue, but I’d say most Brexiters aren’t anti EU migration, they want controlled EU migration. They want the country to be able to choose – to select those that would be an asset to the country, and reject those that wouldn’t. This is the policy of many countries around the world, and it serves them well.

I have another drum to beat – environmental protection. Population increases of the levels we’re experiencing will result in more landfill sites, sewage farms, power stations, reservoirs, housing, roads/railways/airports, etc. All with an associated environmental impact. Our green spaces, our farmland, our native species are all under threat. I fundamentally disagree with the short-sighted Ponzi scheme of importing more and more people in an endless cycle to fuel economic growth.

BreakingDad77 Yes – the employers, laughing all the way to the bank, exploiting the cheap labour and keeping wages low while the taxpayer picks up the benefits tab. No surprise that big business supports Remain, but I’m incredulous that Labour are in the same boat.

House prices are far too high thanks to a massive squeeze on supply, resulting in rents also being far too high. But see above – I don’t want more concreting over the countryside, I want to stabilise or reduce population levels and thus reduce the demand. Interesting to see the Superbug story in the news today, I suspect the world may experience a population crash from something like that. Also see above – I guess that might at least save what’s left of the environment.

Limer Look away now then

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3599970/Migrants-spark-housing-crisis-EU-tells-Britain-build-homes-open-borders-send-population-soaring.html

@Limer

If you are concerned about the environment you should vote Remain. Domcerted action to protect the environment is best done at transnational level.

www.theguardian.com/environment/blog/2013/may/14/environmental-consequences-britain-leaving-eu

Concerted

This is interesting:

twitter.com/uniforbritain/status/733364429602033664?s=09

Did anyone see the Jeremy Paxman EU show last night?

Totally agree Limer with your point about the impact on the countryside.

Also the immigrants age too so need younger people to support them by paying tax

fourmummy your Daily Mail link about housing is a prime example of the tendency to blame the EU and immigrants for everything, ignoring all the other (often more important) factors

yes, increasing population (of which immigration accounts for just of half) is a factor. But all independent commentators also underline the major responsibility of government policy, which for year has enthusiastically supported and promoted rising house prices, as well as the major role of the availability of cheap credit. No mention of this at all in the Daily Mail, strangely.

also not true that the UK is short of land - only 10% of England is classified as "urban landscape" (including parks etc), and under 3% is actually built on
www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-18623096

see also this, for instance, for a much more nuanced picture of the impact of migration on housing availability - based on actual research from LSE and Oxford, not on the claims of a Brexit politician:

www.theguardian.com/housing-network/2016/jan/25/is-immigration-causing-the-uk-housing-crisis

Yes, I saw the Paxman programme, Whisky.

It seemed to knock on the head all arguments that the BBC has a pro-EU bias. Paxman always seems to me to have something of a sneery approach, but he was so sneery in this programme, he might as well have held up a poster with OUT written on it.

However, I found it very interesting, particularly the information about the costly, wholesale move of officials from Brussels to Strasburg, which I hadn't known about before. I am assuming the BBC are being truthful about that. What sort of idiot comes up with such a plan and what sort of organisation doesn't bring about appropriate changes in order to save time and money?

I would imagine that many fence- sitters watching that AND going on to watch the item on British prisons on the 10 o'clock news, may have been pushed a little towards Out. If the BBC are pro-EU (which I very much doubt, by the way), there was no joined up thinking on display last night! It may be causing something of a panic at No 10 this morning.

I still haven't made my mind up though - tomorrow there will be something that throws me the other way.

Chalalala, I agree that the housing shortage is due to a number of problems, of which immigration is a small part. Where I live in the crowded South East, there are a number of family sized houses which to my knowledge have not been lived in for about 5 years. Houses are now seen as investments rather than as somewhere to live and people from all over the world are involved. The government needs to tackle that problem as a matter of urgency.

As for building all over our green and pleasant land - let's try to avoid doing that, just in case we ever have to grow our own food. If you have flown over France, I'm sure you will agree they have a huge percentage of green fields too.

The Paxman programme sounds interesting, I didn't see it but should try and iPlayer it - and yes my first thought when I saw Paxman's name was, "well so much for the BBC's pro-EU bias"!

MuddledMuse yes, of course we need our green spaces, that's a given. Just saying that when just 3% of England is built, it's a bit alarmist to be saying the entire country is about to be concreted over. (also the solution is not necessarily to use the countryside, there's already a lot to do in urban areas)

Interesting point about France, - actually over 20% of France is classified as "urban space", so more so than in England.

Also, French population has been increasing (+2million since 2010), but house prices have been falling at the same time.
Since 2011, house prices have gone up 27% in the UK, but have fallen 6% in France. So, population growth/immigration is definitely not the whole story...

3% of the UK may be built on, but the remaining 97% isn't spare. It's farmland, floodplain, woodland and a fair few mountains. Quite a few National Parks dotted about too.

To those supporting unlimited immigration - Where will you build the new power stations? Do you want fracking under your town? No? You want nuclear then? Wind farms? Solar farms? Tidal? I hope you realise how many turbines you'll need to sustain the population growth you're supporting.

Where will you put the new landfill sites and sewage farms?

How will you ensure a supply of fresh water to each new house? How many valleys will you flood? How many new boreholes will you drill? Or will you build new desalination plants?

How many new airports will you build? Motorways? Railways?

Will your children never know the fun of the park across the road, because it's been built over? Or only see British habitats and species on archive footage of Countryfile? Once it's gone, it's gone. Nobody glorifies the memory of the shooter of the last dodo.

Re the Paxman programe and the EU monthly trek to Strasbourg (at huge expense)........ is it because France insisted?

And 4 YEARS to define "chocolate".......well, that's time and money very well spent then. So how long and how much to agree on a solution to the really serious issues?

It is, to be frank, a crock of shit. Massive ineptitude. Massive waste, Massive corrution and greed. If you think Westminster politics are unrepesentative, corrupt and self serving - the EU dwarfs them all. I do not want us to be part of it.

Juncker has now said that "deserters" who leave the EU will "not be welcomed with open arms".

“If the British say no — which I hope they will not — community life will not carry on as before.”

“The United Kingdom will have to accept being considered as a third party and one we won't suck up to”.

He also said a Leave vote could fuel “European division”.

He said "This isn’t a threat, but our relationship won’t be as it is today."

The Chair of Vote Leave, Gisela Stuart MP said “Another day, another threat from those trying to intimidate the British people into voting to remain in the failing EU.”

Juncker also said reforms in Cameron's renegotiation "deal" would be implemented if the UK votes "remain" but that introducing the package "will not be easy".

"Deserters" - hmmmm, is Junckers calling those who want to leave cowards? How dare he.