The only way to get the EU to take the UK seriously is to vote to leave

[SpringingIntoAction]

Cameron tells us repeatedly that he wants to remain in a reformed EU.

Many others across the political divides also acknowledge the need for the EU to reform itself.

Some say that's why we need to remain in the EU - to change it from within.

I think the EU's refusal to engage with Cameron's plea for his EU reforms and the failure of his 'special deal' to achieve anything like the changes he originally said he wanted, show the EU is unwilling/incapable of reform.

I think the only way to get the EU to start taking our demands for reform seriously is to vote to leave.

They need to start imagining what the EU would be like without one of its largest funders - the UK. We do that by voting to leave.

Clearly illustrates exactly how the rest of the EU view the UK.

And you wonder why, given how open the UK is about its distaste of everything EU? Regular EU membership is not good enough for the UK, it has to demand exemptions and exceptions, it's always made it clear it was only in it for the money and not for anything else - and then on top of this, you then want the rest of Europe to prove to Britain how much they love it and appreciate it by voting for it in a silly singing competition?

I think the UK is a great place, I honestly do. But sometimes, the chip on your shoulder does make me despair.

(I know, I know, I'm conflating "EU" and "Europe" here. But you did it first, and like it or not the two notions have become intertwined.)

I find it quite ridiculous that people think this is a strategy! Why would the EU care enough to change completely if the UK leaves? We are a tiny little damp country that nobody pays much attention to. Not some world leading empire. Vote to stay if you want to be part of it, vote to leave if you don't. It's really no more complicated than that. The ideas about a "reformed EU" are just such piffle I can't even begin to articulate.

Chal,

Where are your from if you don't mind me asking?

The bits of the Uk that could become extremely interesting/ significant to the EU post brexit are the semi-detached bits. Scotland obviously, but you have to wonder about the status of Northern Ireland and the Good Friday agreement in the event of a brexit.

I think the EU as an institution would care very much if the UK leaves - this is much less true for Europeans, though, most of whom won't care either way. It's interesting to speculate how the EU as an institution might react, but putting in place a fast track to EU membership for Scotland seems a likely response.

Buttered,

I take it you have read Orwell's 1984?

The SNP's idea of another Indy Ref should the UK leave the EU is just in their heads. Undemocratic tossers.

MrSnow I'm from France. We have our own, well-documented issues with being disliked by everyone, as illustrated by recent eurovision results

(We like to think it's because they're all jealous though... whatever gets us through the day, eh )

The only way to get the EU to take the UK seriously is to vote to leave

I think this statement should be true.

But I don't think the EU is very good at taking the rest of the world seriously.

If we leave, it will certainly make ordinary people of the EU sit up and think. After all, the people in the Southern countries don't enjoy the fact that their countries have become basket cases with devastating rates of unemployment.

However, the EU elite have their big fat salaries to protect and will do anything they can to preserve the status quo.

Unfortunately, I think the powers that be in the EU will continue to stick to their grand plan and misguided economic policies, even though it means presiding over stagnation and mass unemployment. After we leave, they will probably keep on trying to shore up the Euro until the bitter end.

Luckily they will still need to sell us their cars and olive oil. They will still take us seriously as customers. So they will still be our trading partners and we will get along fine. But the Eurozone is not thriving and it will be better for exporters like me to focus more on areas of the world that are.

It's interesting to speculate how the EU as an institution might react, but putting in place a fast track to EU membership for Scotland seems a likely response.

They very much want Britain to stay, but I would imagine that from their perspective a silver lining of Brexit would be that it would clear the way for faster political integration (which is never going to happen as long as Britain is in the EU). I think this is what is going to happen, as a calculated defense mechanism to prevent contagion and slow dismantlement.

And you wonder why, given how open the UK is about its distaste of everything EU? Regular EU membership is not good enough for the UK, it has to demand exemptions and exceptions, it's always made it clear it was only in it for the money and not for anything else

What money?

And why should every country have to conform to "one size fits all"? Individuality of nations should be something to celebrate, not condemn.

MrSnow I'm from France. We have our own, well-documented issues with being disliked by everyone.

You do indeed.

I lived in France for almost 3 years, en Savoie, I'm a complete Francophile, however, your chip is every bit as big as ours. And you know it.

however, your chip is every bit as big as ours. And you know it.

I know it!

For some reason our chip isn't really related to the EU though, our superiority complex is much more inflated than this, we think our natural rival is the US... feel free to scoff

we think our natural rival is the US... feel free to scoff

A lot of people don't realise the French fascination with fast food, especially American fast food. From what I've experienced a lot of you would swap a cowboy hat for your berets in a heartbeat.

As mentioned, I love the French and France, but if you were to ask me if I'd want to be politically joined with them - not a chance.

Also, no offence, you have to be the laziest nation in the world, it's stunning how lazy you are. It's also to be admired, if I'm honest.

Winterbiscuit I'm not questioning the legitimacy of the British position, fair enough if that's how Britain sees the EU and its place in it. But you can't be half-in, half-out a club, constantly criticise it and its ideals, ask for special treatment, and then wonder why the other members don't embrace you and cheer for you (at a singing contest!).

you have to be the laziest nation in the world, it's stunning how lazy you are. It's also to be admired, if I'm honest.

I'd argue with that, but then it's 9:53 and I'm still on Mumsnet instead of working, so...

About fast food: absolutely.

On that note, off to work

But you can't be half-in, half-out a club

Seeing as we pay £350,000,000 a week to be in the club, calling us half in is a bit cheeky.

Sorry, that should be £35,000,000, I got a bit excited.

But you can't be half-in, half-out a club

All out would be fine by me

Funny how before the UK stops sending money to the EU the out people tell us it will be spent on the NHS and education. Whereas after the UK leaves the EU the money saved will be spent on tax cuts to the rich (after all, that's how they prioritise now).

I don't understand that, could you clarify?

Funny how before the UK stops sending money to the EU the out people tell us it will be spent on the NHS and education. Whereas after the UK leaves the EU the money saved will be spent on tax cuts to the rich (after all, that's how they prioritise now)

and also farm subsidies to all those tory landowners, leaving very little for the man on the street.

I think lemanitoba is saying that any money the UK would "get back" after leaving the EU would not be spent on improving public services, but rather on tax gifts to the wealthier among us.

I would agree given the Tories' record, except that it's very questionable whether there would be any extra money at all. The Brexit calculations of extra income assume that economic growth and tax revenues would not be affected by Brexit, which is highly unlikely.

I would agree given the Tories' record, except that it's very questionable whether there would be any extra money at all.

Of all the times the Tories have previously been in power, they've been replaced after a while. They're not permanent.

Winterbiscuit in my more depressed moments I think that the only way to replace the Tories is for Brexit to happen, and voters to see that it didn't make anything better. Then maybe all the UKIP/anti-immigration votes would go back to Labour...

(wishful thinking, the tabloids would find another segment of the population to blame for everything, probably muslims)