How will you vote in the EU referendum-Leave or Stay?

[BritBrit]

How will you be voting? Can admin add a poll?

If you say so Lurked. I can't be bothered to engage with you any more.

Portia, that's good news

Me with you either Anna.

At least we can vote MPs out every 5 years. We cannot do that to the EU commission who make up laws behind closed doors.

EU commission doesn’t run the EU. The Commission is the EU executive body a bit like the UK civil service who aren’t elected either. Commission proposals need approval by directly elected MEPs & national government ministers.

fullfact.org/europe/eu-facts-behind-claims-brussels-bureaucrats/

On the trading front, countries around the world have been trading for hundreds of years, both with and without formal trading agreements. We did it before the EU was conceived and we will do it when we leave.

Things changed. Since the 1960s jobs, food & defence were/are no longer wholly within our control eg fish stocks need to be managed at international/EU level; we only produce 50% of our food & being a member of the EU gives us access to a secure supply.

During the 1960s & 1970s Britain suffered from “stagflation” which required intervention from the Fed Res & a bailout from the IMF. Now as you say we have the 5th or 6th largest economy in the world. No one can say whether or not that is due to being in the EU but being a member hasn’t stopped our economy from developing.

EU is not to blame for the majority of our ills. It is not the reason for our level of debt. It is not to blame for the low level of our exports to the developing world. Nor is it the reason we have a crisis of skills in our country.

Had the EU remained purely a trading bloc, then fine.

EEC/EU was never purely a trading block. It’s true in the 1975 referendum people were asked about joining the Common Market but if you look at media archives the debate wasn’t just about economics.

Foreign secretary Sir Alec Douglas-Home reiterating George Brown in a press release 1970 said “We believe that Europe can emerge as a Community expressing it’s own point of view and exercising influence in world affairs not only in commercial and economic affairs but also in the political and defence fields.”

euonym.eu/wp/wp-content/uploads/2013/01/Foreign-Secretary-speech-at-IPC-dinner-12th-Jan-1970.pdf#page=3

The “political case” was “paramount”, said Margaret Thatcher.

hansard.millbanksystems.com/commons/1975/apr/08/european-community-membership#column_1020

The Daily Mail (leader, 4 June 1975 day before the referendum) referred explicitly to the goal of “political union”, saying that this was no “dark secret”.

See also the 1975 referendum Yes leaflet;

civitas.org.uk/content/files/1975ReferendumYES.pdf

federal state of Europe

EU isn’t a federation or state, nor is it ever likely to be. The clause “ever closer union,” from which we are now to be exempt, referred to the “ever closer union of people,” not states.

The EU has evolved so there are different tiers of membership reflecting the different economic & political realities of individual states. That’s why the UK has opt outs for the eurozone & Schengen.

Britain, and likeminded states, can not prevent those who have a genuine commitment to further integration from going ahead. But those who want integration cannot impose their view on the rest. There is not, & is unlikely ever to be, political consent in the UK, Sweden, Denmark & perhaps, some other states for a federal or confederal EU with some form of EU Government.

I look forward to the day when the Westminster Parliament is just a council chamber in Europe Kenneth Clarke

I think this is where we are heading. I don't think our opt -outs of the single currency and Schengen will count for much if we vote to stay in.

When I have been leafleting in my town I have met lots of older people who have spoken about how misleading the pro Common Market campaign was. Many are angry that they were lied to in 1975 and won't be fooled a second time. Most people I spoke to who voted in 75 are voting brexit this time round.

If it isn't a state then how come it has a Foreign office with diplomats and huge embassies?

If it isn't a state then how come it has a Foreign office with diplomats and huge embassies?

Legally EU isn't a state, it's an international institution created by states.

I have been reading the Five Presidents report which outlines the EU plans to move towards a more federal EU. The transformation is divided into several stages and the second stage (2017 to 2025) will focus on a deeper transformation of the EMU architecture with a shift in power from national to EU institutions or as they put it recentralisation and federalisation of additional powers in Brussels.

If we remain, we will not be able to cherry pick the bits of this transformation process that we want. The report makes it quite clear what the end game is here , the creation of a United States of Europe.

When I have been leafleting in my town I have met lots of older people who have spoken about how misleading the pro Common Market campaign was. Many are angry that they were lied to in 1975

I voted in 1975 & along with many of my contemporaries remember very differently. As I said above when you look at media archives the evidence is much of the debate wasn't just about economics.

I have been reading the Five Presidents report which outlines the EU plans to move towards a more federal EU. The transformation is divided into several stages and the second stage (2017 to 2025) will focus on a deeper transformation of the EMU architecture with a shift in power from national to EU institutions or as they put it recentralisation and federalisation of additional powers in Brussels.

Yes, but the UK isn't in the EMU. Britain opted out so we are not in the single currency & we would not be directly affected by the proposals. It’s unlikely the eurozone will create a superstate but even if it did the UK wouldn’t be part of it because we are exempt from ever closer union. There are some disagreements about what fiscal union means & the report is on hold. The proposals may never be agreed.

However British governments have been pushing for a deeper single market for decades. Part of the creation of a capital markets union is being pushed by our own commissioner, Jonathan Hill because embracing capital markets, the City (therefore London & the UK) stands to be the winner. Even Boris Johnson, as recently as February, said the single market was of considerable value to UK companies & consumers.

www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/eureferendum/12145593/Voters-have-to-ask-Donald-Tusk-some-hard-questions-before-they-accept-his-EU-deal.html

STIDW, our exemption from ever-closer union isnt ratified in any treaty. If we vote to remain, the exemption will not be worth the paper it is written on. We are currently outside the EMU but, again, if we remain, I think it is inevitable we will be forced to adopt the Euro. The Five Presidents Report makes it clear what the end game is - the shift of power from national to EU institutions. We will not have the power to refuse if we remain.

AnnaForbes: What you are saying is wrong and untrue. I do not know whether you repeat these factually erroneous statements because you just do not understand or whether you are deliberately trying to mislead people. But it is tedious and you should get the basics right before you post.

The UK cannot be forced to join EMU. We have an opt out. To change that would require treaty change. That would require a unanimous vote from all member states including UK.

Please stop posting rubbish. It seriously detracts from any case you think you are making.

She can't cause it undermines her arguments. She repeats the 350 million a week clap trap too.

the UK wouldn’t be part of it because we are exempt from ever closer union

Not yet. Cameron's weak "deal" has yet to be approved by the other EU member states. There's no guarantee this will happen.

Yes, but it will be, it only hasn't been ratified because we are having a refferendum.

There's links all over the place that its enforceable under international law too.

Just on Cameron's weak deal.

You realise this is what we were able to negotiate with the EU while we are still inside it? The agreements are what the rest of the EU is willing to give in order to keep us in and you are all very critical of that.

Then in your next breath you say that the EU will cut us this very beneficial trade deal when we leave because we are so important to it.

Really doesn't make any sense does it?

You realise this is what we were able to negotiate with the EU while we are still inside it?

If they're that grudging towards the UK, even when we're in the EU, then we're better off away from it all.

There may or may not be a beneficial trade deal when we leave. But we should still leave as it is clearly such a toxic relationship.

I am voting to leave because:
-we can control immigration
-won't have to pay billions in EU fees (spend on UK)
-sign our own trade deals
-won't have the TTIP
-won't have to put up with future EU expansion e.g. Turkey/Albania etc
-Regain UK fishing waters & reopen fisheries
-Support UK farms & exit the CAP so we don't pay for EU farms
-Create a UK Bill of Rights
-UK law and UK courts are supreme & not overruled by the EU
-NO EU bailouits
-Cheaper food (no CAP) & cheaper energy (no EU green laws)
-Retake our world trade organisation seat we are not allowed to use

Hopefully most people will vote leave

I thought Cameron only got his weak deal BECAUSE we're have inf the referendum. I got the impression the EU were far more amenable to talking whilst the in/out question is undecided. Can't see it continuing once we definitely are staying in.

our exemption from ever-closer union isnt ratified in any treaty.

The exemption from ever-closer union decision are binding in international law & leaves little or no room to challenge in the EU court or parliament. In any event we have the veto on further treaty amendments relating to the euro zone & the EU constitution. All EU states must consent before the EU can become a superstate. It's unlikely the UK, Denmark, Sweden & perhaps a few other states will agree.

is binding

The deal is enforcable through international law.

We won't be part of ever closer union, cause it doesn't suit us as we're not in the euro.

BritBrit's post shows the lack of understanding of the complexities of this decision and the simplistic idea that we'll get free access to the EU markets without any costs.

Which is basically what all brexiters want, all the benefits of the EU but none of the costs. Its been said by the French and the Germans that we won't get that.

But you believe what you want, despite what the overwhelming evidence tells you.