How will you vote in the EU referendum-Leave or Stay?

[BritBrit]

How will you be voting? Can admin add a poll?

Milly - yes to both.

1 = someone I would never vote for in a million years but can't vote out because round here you could stick a blue rosette on a monkey and it would win.

2 = the person I voted for in the 2014 EP elections who is from a minority party which never gets a look in at general elections, but thanks to proportional representation, got a seat in the EP.

Strangely I know the answer to each of those questions. Although the UK's lack of interest in EU parliamentary elections suggests that most don't.

Buttered - are you referring to the Monster Raving Loony Party?

To be honest, I think that if you didn't vote in the 2014 elections you have no business voting in the referendum.

Nope, the Greens.

Green voter supporting unlimited immigration? How do you square that with protecting the environment?

Why are you conflating two unrelated issues?

Environmental issues don't recognise national borders. And to get any meaningful advances in environmental policy you have to act at an international level. That's one of the reasons why the Greens are supporting remain. But they work hard to challenge the EU's policies and processes from within. For example, they've been very active in challenging TTIP. That's more than you can say for the UKIP MEPs, who claim their expenses but don't actually do anything other than cause havoc.

There aren't 100 people competing for every job, the are on average around 600,000 vacancies and EU immigration is about 175,000. Ei immigrants are less likely to be unemployed as well.

Tell you what I;ll use my eyes: When I walk around my London neighbourhood I see Polish shops and restaurants contributing to the economy, creating jobs. I see workmen from all nationalities and know builders whio are able to complete morejobs due to the larger supply of skilled workers. I don't xee large levels of youths who are motivated about working not getting jobs, youth unemployment is low around here.

When I go back to my native North East I see large levels of unemployment in the indiginous population, but that is the way it has been for decades, I see factories that are now able to produce at the rate they should have been able to all along because they now have staff that are willing to work. I know business owners, who for years couldn't recruit enough people to work at full capacty, an owner of a bus company who couldn't recruit drivers because it invoilved some early morning and late night (but a good rate of pay). All of them now do because they empoy migrants. I know people in the hospitality industry who fear for the future if we brexit.

What does that bit of "what I see" tell you?

It tells me that you live in London, which is not an accurate picture of the rest of the country.

It tells me that you know business owners & the owner of a bus company.

What about ordinary, working class, low skilled, minimally educated people? What have they told you?

"What about ordinary, working class, low skilled, minimally educated people? What have they told you?"

Some that they like the immigrants that they work with, a lot talk about immigration but would never apply it to those people that they know and socialise with. Many use Daily Mail and other style points that are based on inaccuracies when they do this. The biggest one is about benefit scrounging really, immigrants in big council houses etc.

Others that they think immigrants took their jobs. They tend not to like having it pointed out that those jobs were available prior to 2004 and that they didn't want to do them then. This happens a lot in the North East.

So I go back to my point, I use the data because it shows that unemployment is not caused by immigration, and why do I use it? Because none of my personal experience covers a large enough area, or enough detail for me to make an informed decision. Your own exprience, doesn't for you either.

So I go back to my point, I use the data because it shows that unemployment is not caused by immigration, and why do I use it? Because none of my personal experience covers a large enough area, or enough detail for me to make an informed decision. Your own exprience, doesn't for you either.

My own experience is wide & varied.
I stated earlier the wide range of friends, acquaintances & former work colleagues.

I have close family in Scotland (Perth, Dundee, Fife), friends in Aberdeen, Stirling, Moray, Glasgow & Edinburgh.

Husband's family are South Wales, I have lived & have friends in Oxfordshire, various places in Scotland, Lincolnshire, Midlands, Buckinghamshire, Hampshire.
Friends all over England and also Northern Ireland.

Friends who are graduates, friends who are not, friends who are skilled trades, journalists, hospitality, unskilled, menial, office based.

Using my eyes, ears and general wherewithal I can understand the impact that has been felt across many areas of the UK.

Tells me you can see as far as the end of your nose and that includes nose stuck in statistics without applying real life experience beyond your own personal observations.

Greece, Italy - you've dismissed their fiancial systems about to go under as few protests. Do you not know about the reality of the Euozone?

You see there are people using a local shop as they dip in and out of our economy at the expense of lower educated British people. If you speak to some of the Polish people you find the reason they are happy to live hot beds etc is they are sending as much money as possible home - ie it is not spent in our local economy.

As for British people not willing to do lower skilled jobs that was a problem exacerbated under Blair where it wasn't cost effective quite often for people to come off benefits.

Minimum wage is going up and people aren't able to get away with saying no to a job anymore if they've been claiming unemployment benefit for a certain amount of time.

As you seem to suffer from "literalism" when I say eyes - how about bringing intellect and experience too. How about using it to work out that if we need more low skilled workers after we leave EU we can invite them here. It's not a case of no immigration; it is a case of controlled immigration.

You should perhaps read up on the secrecy around TTip as there is countless info about politicians finding it way beyond any view of normal negotiating.

It is peculiar for you to view this level of secrecy as acceptable, or maybe you are just happy to be told what's normal, what counts as an educated" view etc; statistics over experience - speak to doctors on that one maybe - they are all discussing the clinging to statistics by government currently to prove weekend working is needed.

Ooh shall, I make a list of where I know people too or places where I have lived? It doesn't give you the wealth or depth of experience to make the pronouncements you are, we can all talk to people about their own experiences but it doesn't mean that their observations are accurate.

I am beyond fine with some of the implications of TTIP, but I believe the way it is being bandwagoned by the exit crowd is ridiculous, especially as a WTO agreement that you all so favour would bring in many of the lower regulatory standards you all seem to deplore.

Its rather patronising to be told that I'm stuck in statistics by people who can offer no backing or "illumination" for their own opinion other than "use your eyes", I do, and do you know what I see? The complete inadequecies of the Exit campaign.

My post was in direct response to^^ Lurked's assertion:

Because none of my personal experience covers a large enough area, or enough detail for me to make an informed decision. Your own exprience, doesn't for you either.

I did make that perfectly clear at the very beginning of my post, by pasting her comment and bolding it.

It was as part of the ongoing discussion with Lurked re her banging on incessantly with stats and dismissing people's real, lived experiences.

Do the face all you want, I am perfectly aware that anecdote does not equal data, but being as that was not the point of my post, it is misplaced really.

Sorry, italics fail.

It was in response to this:

Because none of my personal experience covers a large enough area, or enough detail for me to make an informed decision. Your own exprience, doesn't for you either.

But thats true Mango, you can't account for how people's perceptions have shaped their veiw of personal experience. I know lots of people of varying types of jobs, in lots of areas in the country but couldn't possibly say that their experience is the actual way things are, because experiences are shaped by our pre concieved perceptions.

Note I like the way you have dismissed mine .

I know you would be using data to probve your points, if you could find any too. Just "use your eyes" is a rather credulous point.

Clearly none of our experiences are the way things "actually" are... For example several Leave posters have said they pretty much only meet Leave people, and in my own surroundings I only have Remain people. Going on our personal experience we all get a very inaccurate picture of the state of opinion as a whole, which seems to be split pretty evenly 50-50. So yes, broad external data is useful to correct the limited, biased experience we all have.

I've no need to post teams of data to try and convince you Lurked, because you are firmly remain - nothing I could say would convince you to change your mind.

I'm firmly in the leave camp, nothing short of something astronomically convincing would change my mind now.

That's fine though, it's the beauty of a free country - we can have polar opposite views and we can say them openly.

I was just making the point that^ uncontrolled immigration is^ having an impact, my personal experiences and that if my very wide social network reflect this.

Anyway, I'm not having a pop at you personally, although I realise it may seem that way - I'm just responding to the words you have written (if you see what I mean?!)

Indeed. It's quite illuminating that there are people here who will say that everyone they know is voting leave, and in the next breath accuse remain voters of living in an elitist little bubble with no idea what "ordinary people" think.

Their social circle sounds a lot more limited and homogeneous than mine, tbh.

Mango, my take on the issue of posting data/links is not that either side is trying to convince one another, but rather that it's interesting and useful to see from where each side derives their opinions and backs them up.

Sorry, that wasn't very literate: 'from where each side derives their opinions and how they back them up' is a bit better, I hope...

If I thought that leaving would be better Mango, Thats the way I'd be voting, I've done significant amounts of research into all of this and the more I do, the more the exit argument seems spurious and lightwieght.

If you provided me with data from a non partisan source then I'd happily read it. But all of the independent bodies seem to warning against brexit.

For example today's economics report that taxes would go up by 2p in the £ if we cut immigration by 100,000 a year, are interesting, but not really in anyones interests.

I

My social circle is wide and very diverse thanks muffin which is probably why I spend less time on here than you . I also have three degrees including a MSc so please stop stereotyping leave campaigners, it makes you look like a twat.

Chalalala, Clearly none of our experiences are the way things "actually" are... For example several Leave posters have said they pretty much only meet Leave people, and in my own surroundings I only have Remain people. I know a good few of each. What does surprise me is how many people aren't that interested in the Referendum at all. I know not everyone is as passionate about it as those of us here, but surely every adult has the responsibility of taking this seriously and trying to find out a few facts (easier said than done I know).

www.rt.com/news/342500-brexit-poll-european-union/ This is interesting, huge support for EU Referendums across the EU. There is already lots of unrest across the continent and I wander if we will be able to limit the contagion. People are getting angry and disillusioned. I'm sure the EU army will be put to eventual good use keeping us in order.

My circle is leave apart from one who is being pressurised by the multi national company that they work for - undecided. That's friends and family.

In wider circle, including acquaintences etc I do personally know people who will vote to stay. However, they doing so from an informed point of view ie they understand the lack of democracy etc and can see why it is better to vote leave but for personal reasons are voting to stay - usually family connections; homes abroad; vested interest - job connected with EU. Worried about price of their home etc. I can't say I have much respect for people unable to see the consequences on our lower paid workers.

I don't know anyone that thinks the EU is beneficial to our lower paid. Great for undercutting labour costs - say cleaners etc.

German people in my circle (know three different families) living here 20-30 years are leave voters and say we are right to be worried about the German obsession with closer union, which really is an obsession and hang the casualties along the way.

In my everyday life I haven't come across the type that pop up on these threads - an in voter - but doesn't know difference between parliament and commission, ECJ and ECHR.

The type who are fervently yes but don't have a clue how the EU works. That has been eye opening.