How will you vote in the EU referendum-Leave or Stay?

[BritBrit]

How will you be voting? Can admin add a poll?

*MrSnow I am actually making your point by saying the data support your argument that the middle class is for Remain, so I'm not sure why you're accusing me of bias?

The image turned out small, sorry, but the link is here if you want to look at the data and give your take on it.*]

You're quite correct, apologies.

www.theguardian.com/world/2016/may/08/rioters-take-to-the-streets-ahead-of-greek-austerity-vote

Greece is in a bigger mess than ever - yesterday for example in guardian :

"For a time, it seemed, Greece’s economic woes had gone away. Eclipsed by Europe’s refugee crisis, terrorist attacks and the fears engendered by Britain’s forthcoming EU referendum, Athens’s debt drama appeared to disappear.

But policymakers are discovering that may have been wishful thinking. The nation that last year came close to exiting the euro – triggering the continent’s biggest existential crisis in decades – is once again close to the brink"

When wishful thinking enters into the territory of dismissing Greece's current predicament as "cuts to public spending, they don't agree with' then either head is in sand or displaying similar arrogance of the EU itself ie "we know what's best for you".

European economic migrants do not cause displacement or higher unemployment amongst British people. The effects on wages mean a 0.5% lower wage paid to people in the lowest 5% of employment, it isn't the massive thing you make out

www.theguardian.com/business/datablog/2014/nov/19/uk-workers-suffer-sixth-year-of-falling-real-pay-in-2014

Why do you need to pay people more wages when you have a steady stream of people willing to work for less money than they'd get at home.

Please wake up and see that the EU is run by the elite, for the benefit of the elite.

Well that article is 2 years old and has little to do with immigration, the reason real wages were falling is that inflation was high and that people were prepared to take lower pay raises because they feared for job security. It wasn't anything to do with immigration, mainly as immigration increases the wages of those im the middle and the top.

www.migrationobservatory.ox.ac.uk/briefings/labour-market-effects-immigration

The effect of immigration on unemployment and wage rates is all in the link above.

"It is these jobs that are being taken over by the economic migrants" some of them yes, many economic migrants are highly trained and skilled people, a higher % of the Poles here have degrees than the British population, 65% of the EU 14 immigrants have degrees.

Lurked, a low skilled job in the UK pays more than in Poland.

A skilled graduate from Poland can come here, alone, for a number of years (let's say 5 years), leaving his family in Poland. He sends back the UK rate of CB etc to his family (all totally within the rules).

He is able to rent a room cheaply, possibly even hotbed with friends.
He is able to work very long hours as he is only here to work - no work/life balance juggling required.
He is able to save/send back a large proportion of his wages as his outgoing in UK are minimal.
This worker is helping to keep wages artificially low as he can work longer & is more available to work longer & anti social hours than his UK counterpart.

He is also more likely to be skilled/higher educated/multi lingual (UK counterpart is unskilled, probably low education level - the exact type of person who traditionally fills these roles).

This is exactly the scenario that low skilled working class people have been battling against since the unfettered migration started.

This is why the working classes are feeling the effects of migration much more keenly than the middle classes & upwards.

Chalala

I didn't see any IQ ratings for your stats.

The reason that older people are more likely to vote out is they are more cynical, ask more questions, don't believe everything a political tells them and are not as idealistic as students. As one grows up (and starts paying ever increasing tax bills) one realises that all those "freebies" and ideals of life need paying for. Freebies like the NHS, parks, schools, museums, clean pavements etc. Just like we're paying a high price for the EU, a completely unnecessary layer of bureaucracy that in this modern day and age of global trade and cheap communications is unnecessary.

Your classification analysis of voters is rather disingenuous.

People who voted in 1973, voted for a common market, not a federal state of Europe and that's another reason why older people are more likely to vote out.

The further down the working class order one finds oneself, the more adversely affected they become by the flood of available labour which drives down wages This is an advantageous to corporates (who win out of the EU) because they get a virtually endless supply of cheap labour (who lose out from the EU) thus boosting profits.

As the UK integrates further with the EU, displaced labour will gravitate to the states of Europe which give them the best life while out of work.

Once the UK is absorbed by the EU, we'll be a state of Europe with similar living standards to all the other countries because the EU will tax the richer states to subsidise the poor ones as they are doing right now. As this progresses, it doesn't take a genius to work out what will eventually happen.

To those that will bash me about our supposed special deal, the EU will run rough shod over that, just like they do with other democratic decisions that aren't in favour of their plans. Junckers makes that clear though of course now what he has said has been taken out of context and he didn't mean what he said after all.

The EU will systematically wear down our leaders until they get what they want. The only leader we had that stood up to the EU was Thatcher; all the others have sold out.

That is a very paticular set of parameters you set there mango.

After tax, and after living costs even on minimum wage even your Pole is unlikely to be able to send much home. He is also unlikely to be able to do work like that for the 5 years you have imagined.

Still comitting a lump of labour fallacy too.

The child benefit thing? Well I think the agreement that Cameron got there is fair, but we have people working in EU countries claiming similar in work benefits tooso it may backfire on them.

I think child benefit should be paid by the member state in which the child is living. Other in-work benefits (e.g. those which effectively mitigate low pay) should be paid by the member state in which the worker is living.

we all know statistics can be used either way as per old phrase:

"Statistics are used in same way a drunk uses a lamppost: for support not illumination."

Facts about how the EU is run and its ongoing plans are for me the most important issue.

It is clear our lower paid workers have less secure jobs and quality of life. Zero hours contracts are a result of companies not needing to attract staff.

Globalisation - corporations - EU.

Don't like to be rude, but yes have to agree with the believing what they are told generation. Tony Blair - Iraq war not enough of a wake up call for not believing everything we are told?

Do own research and use your own eyes. Listen to people not being represented by their labour MPs and how abandoned they feel.

Or keep believing it makes you ever so clever to believe voting to stay in makes you ever so "educated".

www.pollstation.uk/eu-referendum/poll/

Great post, Mango.

I protested against the Iraq war and was an active member of the Stop the War coalition. Were you there in London? Were you there in the marches and after the big ones? I don't just believe what I am told, in fact I sought out the information to inform my opinion.

Its funny that you provide no information of your own just the usual banal "use your eyes" comment. If I use my eyes it tells me a lot.

Zero hours contracts have been around since the 1990s btw, the have become a buzzword in the press, but they have been around in hospitality work and retail for a long time. They have become more common post 2008 because of people's willingness to keep a job, again not to do with immigration.

The Brexiteers would like to thank Labour for the votes: Apparently we're "Extremists"

*By HARRY COLE, Westminster Correspondent
11:31, 10 May 2016
comments 3

LABOUR'S former Home Secretary has branded Brexit supporters “extremists” and questioned their sanity.

Speaking to The Sun on-board Labour’s referendum battle bus Alan Johnson said: "We are the reasonable people. The Leave side are the extremists on this" – sparking outrage from Eurosceptics.

The boss of the Labour In campaign said Leave campaigners have a “certain mentality that is not rational and not balanced” if they cannot see if the EU has done good things.

He said: "They can’t find anything good to say, and I think that is extreme.

"We can all find things that are wrong with the EU - but they can’t find anything that is right and that suggests a kinda certain mentality that is not rational and not balanced.

"And I think the majority of British people are rational and balanced, moderate approach to this question."

"It's extreme - not to take the view that we ought to leave - but the view that you cannot find anything good to say about an institution that has done many good things, won the Nobel Peace Prize in 2012, is admired in terms of its role in keeping the peace on our continent, you can find nothing good to say about it whatsoever.”*

That is a very paticular set of parameters you set there mango.

It's quite a common set of parameters.
Man moves for work, leaves family behind.
When you're on your own with only yourself to look after and purely there to earn, you work longer & more because you can.
It's binge working and it's very common.

After tax, and after living costs even on minimum wage even your Pole is unlikely to be able to send much home.

With only one person to pay for, living in a bed sit or hot bedding there is money left.
More money in relative terms than they can earn in Poland.

He is also unlikely to be able to do work like that for the 5 years you have imagined.

Why?
Many people do this.
I know several that work in the Middle East and work exceptionally long hours, for months on end. They come back to see their families 2 or 3 times a year and work away usually for a few years to earn & save as much as poss.
It's really not unlikely at all.

It is a very specific set of parameters though isn't it. Binge working/hot bedding is quite common but over short periods of time not 5 years. These people are much more likely to be short term workers.

Anyway, its a rather pointless discussion because as the Oxford University data, and others, proves EU immigration doesn't cause native Brits to become unemployed.

^He said: "They can’t find anything good to say, and I think that is extreme.

"We can all find things that are wrong with the EU - but they can’t find anything that is right and that suggests a kinda certain mentality that is not rational and not balanced.

"And I think the majority of British people are rational and balanced, moderate approach to this question."

"It's extreme - not to take the view that we ought to leave - but the view that you cannot find anything good to say about an institution that has done many good things, won the Nobel Peace Prize in 2012, is admired in terms of its role in keeping the peace on our continent, you can find nothing good to say about it whatsoever.”^

To be honest, I would agree with all of that.

Lurked

So how does it help the UK to employ people from the other states of the EU and leave the natives to rot on the dole?

Serving burgers in a cafe doesn't require a degree however, because we have manual workers from Poland with degrees, they are employed in favour of natives equally as capable but have no degree.

How is that an advantage to the UK? Do we then encourage manual workers to obtain a degree and put them in £40,000 of debt so they can compete with a pole with a degree for a job in a burger bar?

There's already too many unnecessary degrees being obtained (to keep youngsters off the dole queue and at the same time burden them with debt) should we have even more of this? If you doubt this, apply for a job as a trainee solicitor. You will be staggered at the at the number of people with Law Degrees. I know someone who had 4 vacancies and received over 400 applicants.

As a poster has already illustrated, just because a Polish person works here, they may choose to live in awful circumstances and spend their money in Poland because it goes much further there (and that is an export of money which is also no good for us).

There is something wrong when workers have to live 4 to a room on low wages to survive. Brought to you courtesy of the EU.

It appears that the EU is not so much making the EU a better place (except for the rich and corporates), it is simple spreading the poverty evenly between all states. I suppose for a socialist this is fair enough but not everyone is sharing the wealth. The rich are getting richer as they have been under Labour and Tory Governments. So that leaves the rest of us to share our spoils with everyone else. We have a fair system in the UK that enables those that cannot work to be supported by the state. However, if we extend this system to the rest of the EU, I wonder what my tax bill will rise to to pay for this Eurowide generosity. And how much will it rise when Turkey and all the others that will no doubt follow. Turkey's already had billions out of us and they're not even signed up yet.

Even if the UK is better of in the EU, long term, I don't see this as sustainable (to maintain our standard of living. )There's just too much to pay for to get the other states up to scratch. Bad enough we are still yet to regenerate parts of our country let alone the EU.

Voting in keeps the status quo in the short term (which of course is how many vote). However, I don't think it will bode well for us in the longer term.

Lurked, you stand by Greece being just a bunch of protests over 'cuts'?

The current NHS dispute surely helps you grasp idea of statistics and interpretation. It's currently in news re: weekend deaths being interpreted in two entirely different ways to prove either/both sides point. Drunks and lampposts. If you are so questioning why do you cling to statistics? They don't give a whole picture on any subject and must always be considered taking into account other factors and reality, of course.

Meanwhile you are thinking Greece and Italy is not indicative of the appaling state of the EU? That the level of secrecy regarding Ttip is acceptable and that elected MEPs are under such pressure - or did you not actually look at the video of the actual MEP I posted but prefer to cling to your lamppost?

Talking to real life people about their lives rather than statistics might help to understand why they feel the way they do.

Hitting them over the head with a book of statistics saying 'no really you are so much better off.'

The large corporations are better off not our working classes.

"It is a very specific set of parameters though isn't it. Binge working/hot bedding is quite common but over short periods of time not 5 years. These people are much more likely to be short term workers"

Yes but an endless supply of short term workers means this situation will be sustained. There will be a queue of workers to replace the workers who quit. As I stated before over suppl;y of labour ensures this.

Lots of sweeping generalisations there bronze, little or nothing other than your assertions to back it up. Let me repeat, EU immigration does not cause UK nationals to become unemployed. Go look at the data Oxford University came up with.

Did you know that with falling migration your tax bill is likely to go up? Go read the Jonathan Portes article published today.

Can you show me any evidence for the fact that being out will benefit us in the long term?

The point about UK students going to university? Well why have there been record numbers applying?

Love the attacks on use of data, and the constant repeating of the drunk and a lamp post line. I use data to refute the constant refrain of "immigrants take our jobs" etc, yet you can't prove otherwise, because if you could you would.

Greece would probably have been better off leaving the Eurozone true, but not better off outside the EU, there is a lot of responsibility has to fall oin its leaders and its lack of tax collection for the situation that they are in now.

As I've said before all trade agreements are conducted in secret, the CETA one was, as was the Swiss deal with China, THe EU deal with South Korea. One of the main reasons for this is that it avoids some firms from getting a market advantage by knowing what is going on prior to anyone else, stops large currency fluctuations.

I agree with LeavetheRoundabout that the EU cannot be fixed unfortunately. It is too undemocratic. That is why we (and others) should leave.

I would like to ask any undecided people two questions:

1. Do you know who your MP is?
2. Do you know who your MEP is?

If - without googling - you can answer question 1 but not question 2 then you should vote Leave.

You cannot and should not put your trust in institutions that you are not interested in and people who are unknown to you and therefore unaccountable to you.

*Talking to real life people about their lives rather than statistics might help to understand why they feel the way they do.

Hitting them over the head with a book of statistics saying 'no really you are so much better off.'

The large corporations are better off not our working classes.*

This is the case with so many things.

How many working class, low skilled, minimally educated people do you know at a personal level Lurked?
These are the people that are historically our cleaners, car washers, bricklayers, builders-mates, refuse collectors, farm labourers, fruit pickers, hospitality staff.

If you know people like this, then please ask them how they personally, truly feel about Eastern European immigration.

Those jobs are the ones that the endless stream of migrants are picking up.
They can put in the hours, put up with shitty conditions and keep the wages low & the employers in profit.

"They have become more common post 2008 because of people's willingness to keep a job, again not to do with immigration"

Not just willingness, forced to. With 100 people waiting to fill your job, you are at the mercy of the employer,. The more supply of labour the worse the situation for the employee. Having 10 times the labour pool to call on makes it better for the employer and worse for the employee. Hence the free flow of EU citizens does make the problem worse. Awful thing to have to say but its pretty much like slavery with a bone chucked in.