How will you vote in the EU referendum-Leave or Stay?

[BritBrit]

How will you be voting? Can admin add a poll?

Why is she warning about the need to protect borders and a return to nationalism when she invited people to make perilous journeys at the risk of a very high probability of death? Just does not make sense - and I can't believe that I am still saying this several months on.

fourmummy

'We have to ensure that Europe is a project that people understand,' she said, adding that a key message that has to hit home is that 'it's better with Europe than without Europe'.

That's they key bit. Because people are starting to realise they would be better off without [Europe] the EU.

Notice the repeated misuse of the term' Europe' instead of the correct 'EU'. Short of an seismic shift in the Continental plates that would probably be so great it wiped out humanity - we will still be part of Europe - even when we have left the hated EU.

Merkel realises that one of her main selling points for the EU is 'open borders' and ease of movement within the EU. If you have open borders internally within the EU then you must control the external boundaries of that superstate.

Greece and Italy are failing to control their portion of the EU superstate's external borders and, as a result, new border fences and controls are springing up across Europe - which destroys the whole ideal of border-free travel. Once that has gone one of the reasons for the EU itself is eroded.

The EU is not a 'project' as Merkel has described it - it is an experiment. It's an experiment that has proven to have failed. But still they persist with their 'European illusion' totally disregarding the damage it is doing throughout the EU empire.

And once a Gvernment's insistence on denying reality starts to adversely affect its population (Cologne for instance), the population starts looking around for a party that will acknowledge reality and parties like AfD emerge,

So we must exercise our democratic right to vote LEAVE and "get the hell out of this mess" (something that I heard expressed to me many times today).

Actually, in project and programme management terms, Europe is a 'programme'.

A project is something that is bounded. The EU is not bounded. It is a portfolio of projects, each usually initaited by an EU Treaty.

Many of these EU projects are concurrent, complex and have interdependencies. Where the programme management fails is that the EU never stops to determine whether the supposed benefits of their actions and investments have been realised/are still achievable, before embarking on another costly integration exercise.

So, according to the discipline of Programme Management , the EU experiment will eventually fail.

This week Merkel said it was important that people understood her immigration policies which have caused her personal ratings to plummet. She said: 'We have to ensure that Europe is a project that people understand,' adding that a key message that has to hit home is that 'it's better with Europe than without Europe'.

Does not sound like a mistake, and she definitely equates Europe =project. I couldn't believe the cheek of her when I read that. She has the gall to lure people to their deaths, create mayhem elsewhere and then turns around and says that! How dare she? She (and her cronies) have stirred up trouble where there was none and now look at it all. Some 'peace project' this is turning out to be. Makes me so angry even all these months later.

I haven't read the full thread yet but...

So far I'm in.

I look at the arguments so far for leaving and they all feel quite xenophobic, and all I see championing the leave campaign are twats who I would cross the road to avoid.

I'm going to start reading this thread now and it will probably take until tomorrow afternoon to read it all with links, but can anyone give a good reason why I should vote to leave?

P.S. How is the voting carried out? Is it a complete count of all the votes cast or is it done in the same way as a general election, that you vote in your constituency and that constituency makes up an overall jigsaw?

I just has a look at that DM article but it's difficult to tell when they won't give a link (that I could find) to the original source of the quote, nevermind the original German.

P.S. How is the voting carried out? Is it a complete count of all the votes cast or is it done in the same way as a general election, that you vote in your constituency and that constituency makes up an overall jigsaw?

Complete count at national level - one man one vote - overall majority win.

I just has a look at that DM article but it's difficult to tell when they won't give a link (that I could find) to the original source of the quote, nevermind the original German.

Classic. You spend weeks moaning about links to the Daily Mail - no link to the Daily Mail and you complain of that too

What? The problem is not a lack of link to the DM, the problem is that the DM are not giving the source of the quote they're citing.

"At the recent EU summit in Valletta Sutherland found himself standing for the group photograph beside the German chancellor, someone he has met regularly over the past decade. “I said in her ear, ‘You’re a hero,’ ” he says. “She looked at me in surprise and said: ‘But it’s for Europe.’ I said: ‘I know: that’s why.’ ”

This is from an Irish Times interview with Peter Sutherland. Aside from that whole Sutherland-Merkel interaction being reminiscent of the George Galloway-Rula Lenska cat scene, am I the only one who finds these interviews really unsettling? It's not just the journo spin. Is no-one else really, really concerned about the 'wtf was she playing at, opening borders and the closing again on a whim? Inviting Syrians, knowing that half the world will turn up, and then warning about the rise of nationalism' thing? I just can't shake the images of desperate people being played. The whole thing is ghastly.

Trilogues: the system that undermines EU democracy and transparency

"Most of the legislation of the European Union (EU) is today adopted using an informal, non-democratic, non-accountable and non-transparent process. This mechanism is known in the EU bubble as “trilogues” or “trialogues”. Trilogues are a set of informal negotiations between the European Parliament, the Council of the European Union and the European Commission to fast-track legislation, with a view to reaching early agreements on legislation."

"Trilogue negotiations are worrisome mainly because

• only a very limited number of participants negotiate for over 500 Million of people and their names are usually not disclosed;
• negotiations are conducted behind closed doors;
• trilogue documents are not released to the public as a general rule;
• access to trilogue documents is often denied, as evidenced in EDRi’s freedom of information requests for the trilogue documents of the Telecoms Single Market Regulation (the regulation dealing with net neutrality in the EU), for example;
• trilogues are subject to undue and undisclosed external pressure. Lobbyists can get an insight of trilogue negotiations if they become friendly with the negotiators. What about the general public? Wouldn’t you like to also have access to documents that will likely affect your life?;
• trilogues profoundly undermine and weaken the position of the only directly democratically-elected institution in the EU, the European Parliament;
• the process strips the decision-making process of accountability, because secrecy hides how the agreements are reached."

Thanks Springing

BOOGERS says I look at the arguments so far for leaving and they all feel quite xenophobic.

Some arguments may be xenophobic, but you have to realise that is in response to the truly xenophobic-separatist cultures that were invited into EU. The xenophobia you think you are picking up is a drop in the ocean to the outrageous and anti-humane beliefs that so many, men and women, in those cultures proudly adhere to.

Leaving the EU is much more about regaining our independence and path in life. For a small country, we pay generously into EU - I think we are the 3rd largest contributor. So of course Germany-France-Italy etc do not want us to leave, especially as soon Turkey will be allowed visas in the UK, ditto Armenia, Albania, Macedonia and a few others. Without UK's contribution it means there will be less £ in the moneypot and the two main members (Germany and France) will begin to 'feel it'.

Don't forget that all MEPs are given very generous allowances to educate their children privately, private family health insurance, an over-generous housing allowance, they are paid a pre-determined sum for flights. So for example, an MEP will buy an el cheapo flight from Luton to Brussels, but he will be reimbursed 4 times that. An unnecessary generosity, why so free and easy with other people's money? And don't forget the gold-plated pensions, even if their time as an MEP is short. The MEPs live off their expenses very well without touching their salaries. The EU is a very expensive club, and if it is a trading organisation then why is it interfering politically by changing the demographic make-up of most member countries? The answer: The EU is far more than a trading partnership, it always has been and it is now showing its real raison d'etre.

Here is one example of what it costs a UK company to export to the EU, as opposed to countries outside of the EU. This is a letter from a firm called Echopilot Marine Electronics Ltd in Hampshire.

“For the past 40 years, our English family business has made and exported sonar equipment around the world. We usually export about 85 percent of our output. Last month, 6 sonar went to Azerbaijan, 5 to the US and another to China. Each simply required only a letter confirming their origin.

“We also shipped sonar to France, Italy and Germany – and each needed to be CE-marked. The testing for this marking costs thousands per item. Meanwhile, we’ve lost many of our boatbuilding customers whose vessels now have to comply with the Recreational Craft Directive. This has been used by larger boatbuilders to kill off smaller firms. I’ve been asked to sit on committees which write these rules, often with the aside that ‘then we can write the rules to exclude others.’

“So being in the EU has not helped our business at all: we’re capable of exporting around the world without being a member.”

"but you have to realise that is in response to the truly xenophobic-separatist cultures that were invited into EU"

Oh yes, which current EU countries are these?

The rest of your argument is rubbish too, the two main members you list are net contributors to the EU and we are only contributing about £7.5 bn net, I doubt the EU would feel it because of the small percentage of the budget that it takes up.

Yes, damn that Recreational Craft Directive which requires boatbuilders to ensure that their vessels are fit for sale and use. Bloody EU red tape.

Bloody EU coming over here making things safer for us.

Anyway, the CBI says that 77% of SMEs back being in the EU and say its beneficial.

"but you have to realise that is in response to the truly xenophobic-separatist cultures that were invited into EU"
Oh yes, which current EU countries are these

I did not express myself well, apologies. I meant the xenophobic-separatist cultures that Mrs Merkel invited last year into the EU. The intention was to take Syrian war refugees but peoples from all over came. They are not from any European country, and their behaviour since January and even now continues to appall.

only contributing about £7.5 bn net

I'm sure the UK's public services wouldn't say no to "only" £7.5 billion.

Sir James Dyson has expressed concerns about how the EU holds back new technology.

www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/11245359/Dyson-Britain-should-leave-Europe-to-avoid-being-dominated-by-Germans.html

"Sir James BBC Radio 4's Today programme: "I think it's a European Union dominated by Germany, and in our particular field we have these very large German companies who dominate standards setting and energy reduction committees, and so we get the old guard and old technology supported and not new technology.""

""I want to keep EFTA – European free trade – and free movement of peoples, but I don't see that we need to be dominated and bullied by the Germans.""

Winterbuscuit, in fiscal terms its very small.

I'm sure the British people will also notice the economy going downhill on exit too, and the fact that if this happens we won't have the "savings".

James Dyson can say that, but if you deal with european free trade you'd have to go with European regulations anyway.

I'm sure the British people will also notice the economy going downhill on exit too

Maybe so, but isn't that just predicted for the short term?

If we left the EU, yes our products may need to meet EU regulations, just like we have to meet the regulations of any other non-EU country we sell to. But we'd be able to make them to our own British standards to sell here, and to set our own regulations on what we'll accept from imported products.