How will you vote in the EU referendum-Leave or Stay?

[BritBrit]

How will you be voting? Can admin add a poll?

There is no democratic choice against any law. The only opinion which is binding is that of the judges hearing a case

In the EU

You could argue that a jury in the Uk has democratically chosen against a law if they fail to convict someone who has clearly broken said law.

Springing, the MEP Richard Corbett wrote

I have asked the Jean Monnet foundation in Switzerland whether there is any record of Jean Monnet saying anything of the sort, and they confirm that he didn't - this was an invention first made up in a British newspaper in the 1970s.

On the other hand, they have sent me a real speech by Jean Monnet, delivered on the 28th March 1953 to the parliamentary assembly of the Council of Europe, in which he said precisely the opposite -

"Our Community will only develop well if all the measures that it takes are made public, explained publicly not only to the peoples of our Community but also to those who do not belong to it"

^His evil empire lives on grin

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jean_Monnet_Programme#See_also

Any those funded academic posts all promoting EU integration.^

Originally it was Winston Churchill who coined the phrase a “kind of United States of Europe” & Spinelli pushed for some kind of federalism. They were referring to uniting in a common purpose & a loose federal system like Switzerland where decisions are made at the lowest possible level rather than a superstate.

Integration theory has evolved respecting competences, sharing responsibilities & cooperating between the various levels of governance. In this context, it refers to the principle of subsidiarity, which places decisions as close as possible to the citizens.

What we have is an EU with different tiers of membership to reflect the realities of politics & economics in individual states. Because of the veto countries like UK, Denmark & Sweden cannot have more integration imposed against their wishes but cannot prevent other states that want it from having further integration.

There is no democratic choice against any law. The only opinion which is binding is that of the judges hearing a case

In the EU

You could argue that a jury in the Uk has democratically chosen against a law if they fail to convict someone who has clearly broken said law.

Not every case is criminal or heard by a jury in the UK.

Churchill wanted a United States of Europe with Britain outside of it:

Churchill had made his opinion on the question of Great Britain’s role in Europe very clear as early as 1930, when he published a newspaper article in support of Aristide Briand’s plan for the creation of a European federal union. Churchill wholeheartedly supported Briand’s idea, but he stressed that Great Britain could never be part of such a union because: “[…] we have our own dream and our own task. We are with Europe, but not of it. We are linked, but not comprised. We are interested and associated, but not absorbed.”

britishscholar.org/publications/2012/06/15/with-europe-but-not-of-it-an-exclusively-british-attitude/

Churchill did offer France political union to keep them fighting in World War 2 but
Churchill did not pursue any UK integration into a federal Europe when he could have do so during his 2nd Premiership.

Churchill also wrote that the role of Britain in Europe was to maintain the balance of power. (not join a German dominated EU)

when it becomes serious you have to lie

Out of context one liners don’t make an argument. Juncker was talking about organising a meeting of finance ministers at the height of the euro crisis to talk about whether Greece could remain in the single currency.

Does that make Juncker's dishonesty OK then?

Churchill had made his opinion on the question of Great Britain’s role in Europe very clear as early as 1930, when he published a newspaper article in support of Aristide Briand’s plan for the creation of a European federal union. Churchill wholeheartedly supported Briand’s idea, but he stressed that Great Britain could never be part of such a union because: “[…] we have our own dream and our own task. We are with Europe, but not of it. We are linked, but not comprised. We are interested and associated, but not absorbed.”

Context is everything. At that time he believed Britains’s future was with Commonwealth. The full article is available here;

drive.google.com/file/d/0B-c4rDWePh_pRV9pcnlhM2N0MVE/view

As the Empire & Commonwealth diminished there is evidence he changed his mind.

We must build a kind of United States of Europe.. The structure of the United States of Europe, if well and truly built, will be such as to make the material strength of a single state less important.. If at first all the States of Europe are not willing or able to join the Union, we must nevertheless proceed to assemble and combine those who will and those who can.

Churchill - Zurich speech 1946

After the first British victory in the War, at Allemagne, Churchill wrote to his Foreign Secretary, Anthony Eden: “I must admit that thoughts rest primarily in Europe, the revival of the glory of Europe, the parent continent of the modern nations and of civilisation.” He then made a remarkably prescient comment, which I think would get him expelled from the Conservative Party today: “Hard as it is to say now, I look forward to a United States of Europe, in which the barriers between the nations will be greatly minimised and unrestricted travel will be possible.”

In his speeches in opposition, he seemed to indicate that he supported Britain becoming part of this Europe. He spoke at the Albert Hall, in May 1947, of the idea of a united Europe, “in which our country will play a decisive part,” and he argued that Britain and France should be the founder partners in this movement. He said: “If Europe united is to be a living force, Britain will have to play her full part as a member of the European family.”

Professor Vernon Bogdanor

www.gresham.ac.uk/lectures-and-events/britain-in-the-20th-century-the-conservative-reaction-1951-1965

contemporaryhistoryusj.wordpress.com/2011/11/29/1946-winston-churchills-speech/

The British Government have rightly stated that they cannot commit this country to entering any European Union without the agreement of the other members of the British Commonwealth. We all agree with that statement. But no time must be lost in discussing the question with the Dominions and seeking to convince them that their interests as well as ours lie in a United Europe.

Churchill - European Movement speech 1949

www.cvce.eu/content/publication/1999/1/1/ce26cc27-30bc-4ec1-b0df-8a572f3dcc0e/publishable_en.pdf

In 1950 Churchill called for the formation of a European Army.

www.cvce.eu/content/publication/1997/10/13/ed9e513b-af3b-47a0-b03c-8335a7aa237d/publishable_en.pdf

Fab post there.

Love to see the brexit side misusing quotes, facts and statistics. Smoke and mirrors all of it.

I'm still concerned about this vote though, the right wing press and the Conservatives have banged on about how awful Europe is and blamed immigration for everything for so long that I think this willhave clouded people's views. Sadly almost all of the information they used to back their points while they did this was misused too.

the Conservatives have banged on about how awful Europe is and blamed immigration for everything for so long that I think this will have clouded people's views.

There is so much more to voting "Leave" than immigration. Sovereignty, democracy, feeling that the EU can't be reformed, preferring to have our laws made by British politicians, etc.

I agree about the hypocrisy of the Tories. Their 2015 election manifesto contained a good deal of things they thought should change in the EU. Yet although as you say they have "banged on" about the negative aspects of the EU, they're promoting "remain". It's in their own interests, of course.

Thankfully the British people can vote in a different government if that's what enough of us choose. Young adults will have only had a Tory (or Tory/Lib Dem coalition) government in their lifetime, and it might feel like it won't ever change, but of course that isn't the case.

Winterbiscuit, you are right, there is more to it than immigration. And the issues you cite are understandable concerns, although on balance I don't think they are valid.

But make no mistake, if Leave wins, it will be on the issue of immigration, on a backdrop of vague and largely uninformed "EU redtape/bureaucrats" complaints.

What astonishes me is how everyone on the Brexit threads, whether Leave or Remain, seems to agree about the general awfulness of the Tories. How did they manage to win the last GE so comprehensively? Is there a silent majority who's just not that interested in the referendum?

They've banged on about the EU because it was an easy thing to pin blame on. NHS not working, immigration, your kid didn't get a school place, immigration, busieness is hard, EU regulation etc.

The redtape and bureuacracy stuff is misguided a lot of the time.

Quite frankly I have no idea what relevance the opinion of Churchill or any other historical figures have in this particular debate.

The WWW did not exist back then; trading nowadays is a world away from pre Internet.

Ah but lots of trade is not done on the internet, and the internet doesn't remove barriers to trade such as tariffs/quoutas etc. It also doesn't remove regulatory red tape etc.

I think Churchill and the historcial figures were quoted as appeals to emotion and history, and then corrected.

The EU actually leads the way on consumer protection in e-commerce because distance selling is obviously a good thing for the single market but it can only succeed if consumers trust that they have rights they can enforce if something goes wrong.

Just returned from my latest spell of missionary work bring the Good News of Brexit to the willing masses.

I even met a REMAIN person today - their positive reason for staying in the EU boiled down to 'Both sides are crap, but it's better the devil you know'.

Excellent recommendation for 40+ years of EU membership.

However, most people I met were vehemently OUT and insisted on telling us that all their friends and their family were voting OUT too.

Quite a few have said they are finding Cameron's Project Fear very funny.

Many are looking forward to 23 June, Independence Day, when we vote to LEAVE and also the bonus of 24 June when Cameron is chucked out by the Tories.

Win Win.

Strange that most people you meet confirm your views. I think there might be a lot.of.people. keeping heir opinions to themselves when you are about.

Spring, are you really comparing yourself to the kind of crazy evangelists that people cross the street to avoid?

No, I stand still. They rush to see me to tell me how much they hate the EU and that nice Mr Obama has definitely made them determined to vote LEAVE.

I just smile and try to calm them down after Cameron has tried to wind them up with his pitiful Project Fear.

A British Prime Minister eagerly egging on a US President to try to scare the British into subjected themselves to continued EU rule.

It makes them very cross indeed.

Uh huh, of course they do.

Well done Springing

Well done? Really?

Let's just give Spring the benefit of the doubt for a minute and assume that people really were rushing over to tell her how much they hate the EU.

All these people will have been planning to vote leave anyway. The remainers and the undecideds will have given her a wide berth.

But if preaching to the choir makes her feel good about herself, fine. It's not harming anyone else - least of all the remain campaign.

Haven't read all the thread but think that this fits in here. I've just been reading the DM article re AfD protests in Germany (today's front page) and , I don't know if this is a point of translation or DM shorthand, but I just don't understand Merkel's statements:

"We have to ensure that Europe is a project that people understand". The statistics (of AfD's popularity) were revealed as Merkel urged European leaders to protect the EU's external borders or risk a '"return to nationalism". She said today that border defence represents a "challenge for the future of Europe" from "the Mediterranean to the North Pole"

The main point for me is that I just don't understand what she is saying. It's really worrying and this isn't the first time that I've read some very bizarre utterances from her. She has made these opaque and almost coded statements before without explaining what she means. 'Project Europe', whatever it is, seems to be a dark and mysterious entity if we are to go by Merkel's pronouncements about it. Does not inspire confidence. Quite the opposite.

Well, what exactly is 'Project Europe'? We all have our own interpretation of what we think it means but what does Merkel mean when she talks about it? Why would she be sounding a warning about a possible return to nationalism and the need to protect borders given her announcements a few months ago? She sounds bemused and surprised. I am genuinely confused because I don't understand her language. Her interviews are often opaque. I am not trying to see anything dark in this because we may end up 'Remaining' but I'm genuinely confused by her and have been for a while now.